Atheism +

[Shell B]

Unrelated to the rest of your post, but intoxication is done by choice... which means that decisions made after becoming intoxicated cannot so readily be dismissed as being outside of the realms of the intoxicated person's responsibility.

As I said, it's unrelated to what you're saying, but from a moral perspective (which is what interests me), the choice to consume alcohol has to be considered when apportioning blame.

Absolutely a great point. If you give consent after willingly becoming intoxicated, it is consent, unless some mitigating factor such as a date rape drug or being underage complicates the matter. You cannot get drunk, say yes, do the deed without complaint and then wake up and decide the person isn't good enough now that you are not drunk so you were raped. No. Don't drink so much. I'll be the first to admit that I have probably done things I would not have done sober when I used to drink. It was not rape if I said yes or at least didn't say no and was able to, was it? I was just stupid and drunk. Shit happens. Get over it.

[Tiberius]

Unrelated to the rest of your post, but intoxication is done by choice... which means that decisions made after becoming intoxicated cannot so readily be dismissed as being outside of the realms of the intoxicated person's responsibility.

As I said, it's unrelated to what you're saying, but from a moral perspective (which is what interests me), the choice to consume alcohol has to be considered when apportioning blame.

I agree, with the exception for people who are plied with alcohol or have their drinks spiked. Sometimes intoxication is not done by choice.

A tricky legal thought exercise.

Two absolutely smashed college students wake up in the morning and it's apparent that some seriously raunchy shit has gone down. Neither can remember a fucking minute of it. The male/female makes an accusation of rape. What to do?
male/male
female/female

Not tricky at all. If neither can remember at all, there is no way to tell whether either party is guilty of rape or not. In a court of law you must prove beyond reasonable doubt that a rape occurred. It is surely upsetting for the victim when this cannot happen and a guilty rapist is allowed free, but I'd rather that happen than an innocent person be found guilty. Always.

[thesummerqueen]

Not to mention the fact that it's now come to light that sometimes "rape victims" do lie, and sometimes women say those things to entrap men so that they don't get in trouble.

I'd like to think that with religion dying out maybe we wouldn't be so scared of sex that girls would fall into the cycle of blaming alcohol or other situations for the reasons they did "slutty" things but it won't happen any time soon.

[TaraJo]

I agree, with the exception for people who are plied with alcohol or have their drinks spiked. Sometimes intoxication is not done by choice.

I agree. I remember reading a story a while ago (don't even as me to look this up; it was a little obscure and hard to find), it was about a fuckin' marine who went out for a drink just before he was being shipped out to Afghanistan. He goes to a bar, meets an interesting woman and has a drink or two with her. Then things get blurry and he doesn't remember anything until he wakes up, tied down to her bed with her having sex with him. She told him "Don't tell anyone or I'll just say you raped me." Know what? Her tactic worked perfectly. He knew nobody would believe a big, strong, muscular military man is actually going to be a rape victim and is much more likely to be the aggressor. Maybe, if he had a blood test done where they found evidence of the roofie she slipped him or the viagra she also gave him to maintain his erection, but even that's going to take time and damage his career.

Sometimes there's some amount of pressure to drink from the people around you. While I'll be the first to say pressuring someone to drink when they don't want to is a dick move, it also doesn't eliminate personal responsibility. Instead of being in a situation where one person is right and the other is wrong, you get two people who are wrong.

I also think it would be interesting to look at society's view of statutory rape in regards to sexism. When an older man has sex with a teen age girl, say 15 or 16, how does the world see it? He's a monster who manipulated that poor girl for his own selfish, deviant sexual urges. What about those women (and there have been quite a few over the past decade or so) who has sex with a 15 or 16 year old boy? We all tell him how lucky he is and what a stud he is. Seriously. Can you imagine the outcry if a woman was raped and we tell her she should just enjoy it or we tell other women they should be jealous?

Not to mention the fact that it's now come to light that sometimes "rape victims" do lie, and sometimes women say those things to entrap men so that they don't get in trouble.

I'd like to think that with religion dying out maybe we wouldn't be so scared of sex that girls would fall into the cycle of blaming alcohol or other situations for the reasons they did "slutty" things but it won't happen any time soon.

Yeah, it's another problem with feminist theory. They inherently think it's wrong to question a woman who has just claimed to have been raped. Being raped almost turns into a trump card for them, where having been raped can basically silence anyone who opposes you. Almost makes me wish I had been raped just so I can have a little more feminist cred. What's worse, if it's wrong to question someone who claims rape, well, do they have even a basic understanding of how a court of law works? Hell yes they're going to have questions; that's what a trial is!

And, yes, if a girl makes bad choices and she gets raped for it, I'm not saying she deserved rape (nobody does), but I am saying it's not wrong to call her on the bad choices. Yes, my home should be safe while I'm away, but if I forget to lock the door, I made a bad choice and I'm suffering the consequences. And if someone goes to a party with lots of drinking and drugs and unsavory people, well, this person needs to understand they're making a bad choice and rape is just one of the many possible consequences of bad choices. If you can't point out the bad choices people make that put them in dangerous situations, you can't help people stay out of those situations in the future.

[thesummerqueen]

Actually, I *have* been told by some women that some girls would be jealous of the attention I get, and I've told some women that myself.

Here's the thing: women LOVE to call foul if the guy creeping on them isn't someone they find attractive. But if it's someone they like, then BAM - he's Edward from Twilight! Sleeping outside their window! [mock sigh]

[TaraJo]

Actually, I *have* been told by some women that some girls would be jealous of the attention I get, and I've told some women that myself.

Here's the thing: women LOVE to call foul if the guy creeping on them isn't someone they find attractive. But if it's someone they like, then BAM - he's Edward from Twilight! Sleeping outside their window! [mock sigh]

Yeah, I'll be the first to admit, creepy guys hitting on me can be annoying, but I don't see that as misogyny at all. It's just guys who are into me expressing their interest. Sometimes the lines they use are gross, but that's actually pretty rare (and it's usually followed by me making equally gross comments about their mother).

Heh. I've seen one of these feminist bloggers bemoan how she's always single, too. Maybe she wouldn't be single if she didn't find misandry so acceptable or if she allowed men to show interest in her without them being labeled misogynist pigs.

[thesummerqueen]

Let me tell you - hot guys can be creepy and use stupid lines too.

That's why, while I appreciate the outer, I don't let it rule me. The owner of my company has a son who is GORGEOUS....and made the mistake of opening his mouth and letting all his stupid fall out. Now I can't even really appreciate his looks. Ugh.

But hey, that's me - I respect cleverness, kindness and humor. If you can make me laugh at a stupid joke, I'll probably like you - and that's a good step towards fucking you. I can handle you not being magazine hot.

Other people apparently don't have the same values.

[Kayenneh]

The owner of my company has a son who is GORGEOUS....and made the mistake of opening his mouth and letting all his stupid fall out. Now I can't even really appreciate his looks. Ugh.

I agree with you. Whilst looks are indeed a virtue, I would never consider dating a hottie who is stupid, but always go for the 'uglier' one with personality.

[TaraJo]

The owner of my company has a son who is GORGEOUS....and made the mistake of opening his mouth and letting all his stupid fall out. Now I can't even really appreciate his looks. Ugh.

I agree with you. Whilst looks are indeed a virtue, I would never consider dating a hottie who is stupid, but always go for the 'uglier' one with personality.

Third. I had to try to pinpoint when, exactly, I knew I was falling in love with my boyfriend. I had to think a little and I realized it was when we went on a museum date. We went to the natural history museum and he was getting really excited and 'geeking out' at all the exhibits there. I thought it was super cute and it's what really got the feelings started for him.

But I'm into geeks. I've had to deal with the wannabe gangsters with baggy pants hanging half way down their butt and I've dealt with back water rednecks and, honestly, no matter how physically attractive those guys may be, I'd still be much more willing to date the guy I run into at Gamestop who wants to tell me why he's so displeased with the World of Warcraft's new expansion, even if this guy is physically unattractive.

[Faith No More]

I also think it would be interesting to look at society's view of statutory rape in regards to sexism. When an older man has sex with a teen age girl, say 15 or 16, how does the world see it? He's a monster who manipulated that poor girl for his own selfish, deviant sexual urges. What about those women (and there have been quite a few over the past decade or so) who has sex with a 15 or 16 year old boy? We all tell him how lucky he is and what a stud he is. Seriously. Can you imagine the outcry if a woman was raped and we tell her she should just enjoy it or we tell other women they should be jealous?

This reminds me of the ex-cheerleader turned high school teacher that slept with one of her students. As a reward for pleading guilty she had all felony charges dropped against her which meant she would spend no time in prison. All I could think of when I saw this on the news was the outcry there would be if a man who fucked one of his underage students was allowed to go free.