Uni Health Care

[bozo]

Libertarianism is socially left and economically right, focussing on both social and economic liberty. Of course the socialist libertarians think that the one exception to liberty should be in regards to money.

Depends on your definitions of left and right. By mine you are right-wing.

[Tiberius]

What do you define as socially left?

I'm pro gay marriage, pro freedom of speech, anti-prohibition, etc. I don't think the government should have any say in what people say or think unless it infringes another person's rights. I don't think the government should have a say in what people do in their own homes either.

I'm interested in how you perceive what socially left is.

[bozo]

You embace capitalism and reject socialism
You would take away benefit from the unemployed and force them into work even though work may not be available, which is bad enough, whilst your idea of creating jobs is encouraging people to become entrepreneurial capitalists running businesses.
You would abolish progressive taxation and put a level tax in its place which would benefit the few at the expense of the many.
You would have charities " looking after " the needy , rather than the state, and turn the clock back to the days of the soup kitchens.
You would privatise education and again turn the clock back generations in favour of the wealthy.
You are on record as stating that you would be in favour of harsher prison sentences. Your agenda would probably cause more crime and no doubt you would press for even harsher punishment for those who have fallen foul of your society where money rules.

For these reasons I say your agenda is right-wing and reminiscent of Thatcherism.

[Kyuuketsuki]

You have failed to convince me that Libertarianism is anything other than a right-wing form of capitalism which would benefit the few at the expense of the many.

For once I think we may be more-or-less in agreement ... I guess this libertarianism is kind of enshrined in Gnu Labour and I have to say I pretty much fucking detest the party because I am old-Labour, true socialist.

I think people should be rewarded for success but the differences between poor and the "monied classes" is ridiculous! I cannot see any valid justification for it at all.

Kyu

[leo-rcc]

For these reasons I say your agenda is right-wing and reminiscent of Thatcherism.

All well and good, but you didn't answer Adrian's question.

What do you define as socially left?

[bozo]

Well spotted Leo, no I didn't. I am attempting to make Adrian realise that you cannot embrace capitalism as wholeheartedly as he does and still claim left credentials.

[Tiberius]

You embace capitalism and reject socialism

Do you listen? I accept that I am economically right-wing. What I am saying is that socially I am left-wing.

You would take away benefit from the unemployed and force them into work even though work may not be available, which is bad enough, whilst your idea of creating jobs is encouraging people to become entrepreneurial capitalists running businesses.

Economic not social.

You would abolish progressive taxation and put a level tax in its place which would benefit the few at the expense of the many.

Economic not social.

You would have charities " looking after " the needy , rather than the state, and turn the clock back to the days of the soup kitchens.

No, we would have charities looking after the needy and the government creating jobs for them. The easier we make it for business growth, the more jobs there will be, and the more opportunity,

You would privatise education and again turn the clock back generations in favour of the wealthy.

Have you got a refutation of my policy on education? Other than "the poor won't afford school" which is completely untrue given that there would be various charitable schemes and lower-fee schools that could take those children. It also gives an incentive for people to find work. Anyway, this is yet again, an economic issue rather than social.

You are on record as stating that you would be in favour of harsher prison sentences. Your agenda would probably cause more crime and no doubt you would press for even harsher punishment for those who have fallen foul of your society where money rules.

Please provide evidence that there would be more crime. Long prison sentences act as a deterant, as would the police force that would be expanded to protect citizens. The abolition of prohibition (that phrase sounds good ) would erase the black-market and cut down on the crime associated with it.

Well spotted Leo, no I didn't. I am attempting to make Adrian realise that you cannot embrace capitalism as wholeheartedly as he does and still claim left credentials.

I seem to remember in the socialism thread, you repeatedly dodging the question. If you are going to do the same here, I'll just walk away. I don't have time to play your games when you show me absolutely no respect in refusing to answer some honest questions.

So here is your chance; how am I not socially left-wing by being pro-civil rights, and against government interest in our private lives? I am a social progressivist and proud of it. I just happen to think capitalism is the best way forward for a country economically.

[bozo]

Adrian, I'm very comfortable if you " walk away ".

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

"What do you define as socially left?"


First,imo,it's not possible to separate left wing [or right] wing into social and political.The political system determines the economic system and levels of social justice. (Marxism 101)


'Liberatianism' is a right wing ideology,with an emphasis on individual freedom, laissez faire capitalism and the principle of user pays.It includes the absurd notion of the "trickle own theory" of the distribution of wealth and social justice. Libertarianism is essentially bourgeois,selfish and self indulgent,the antithesis of a left wing ideology.

In politics, left-wing, political left, leftist and the Left are terms used to describe support for changing traditional social orders and creating a more egalitarian distribution of wealth and privilege. The phrase left-wing was coined during the French Revolution, referring to the seating arrangement in parliament; those who sat on the left supported the republic, the popular political movements and secularization.[1][2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics

In politics, right-wing, political right, rightist and the Right are terms used to describe support for preserving traditional or cultural values and customs and maintaining some form of social hierarchy.[1][2][3] The phrase right-wing was coined during the French Revolution, when right-wing referred to seating arrangements in parliament; those who sat on the right supported the monarchy, the aristocracy and the established church.[4][5][6][7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_politics

According to the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

Libertarians are committed to the belief that individuals, and not states or groups of any other kind, are both ontologically and normatively primary; that individuals have rights against certain kinds of forcible interference on the part of others; that liberty, understood as non-interference, is the only thing that can be legitimately demanded of others as a matter of legal or political right; that robust property rights and the economic liberty that follows from their consistent recognition are of central importance in respecting individual liberty; that social order is not at odds with but develops out of individual liberty; that the only proper use of coercion is defensive or to rectify an error; that governments are bound by essentially the same moral principles as individuals; and that most existing and historical governments have acted improperly insofar as they have utilized coercion for plunder, aggression, redistribution, and other purposes beyond the protection of individual liberty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian...principles

[Tiberius]

terms used to describe support for changing traditional social orders and creating a more egalitarian distribution of wealth and privilege

Hmmm...so it's "changing traditional social orders" (social) and "creating a more egalitarian distribution of wealth and privilege" (economic).

Your own examples refute your assertion that it is "not possible to separate left wing [or right] wing into social and political economic" (I'm assuming you meant "economic" instead of "political")

Like I said, socially left, economically right!

Michael Shermer wrote a good article on it: http://skepticblog.org/2009/05/12/why-i-...bertarian/