Hare Krishna

[Akincana Krishna dasa]

Let's take this "debate" regarding science to a grass root level. E.g. at the moment I'm doing a course that focuses on medical powders and their properties. I am fortunate enough to have two of the most prominent persons in the field in the country as a lecturer and as an assistant in the lab, which mean I have access to the newest discoveries and data. Do I consider these persons as authorities in the field? Yes. Do I take every word they say for granted? No. I have a fundamental understanding of chemistry and the forces working on minuscule chemical particles and can take what I already know and apply this to the new information given to me and confirm that it seems consistent. In the lab I get to put that knowledge into practice and actually see the results for myself. There is no doubt in my mind that the knowledge I've received is anyway corrupt, because when comparing my work to the other groups doing the same in the lab it is proven that powders indeed work the way we were told.

I think it's a beautiful system of knowledge, that you can feel really confident produces a lot of truth. I don't knock it for a second - never have.

At the same time, you're dealing with medical powders... not an explanation for reality. Not a grand explanation for how things work and why things are how they are. Not knocking what you're into - but you might want to agree, you're working on a totally different set of questions and answers. So while I might want to consult your knowledge if I have a medical problem, why should I consult you on issues about the basis of existence? Have you done any lab experiments to test something about that?

I understand your point, though. You're telling me how science works, because you want science when talking about things.

I have zero background in natural sciences besides a few classes in High School.

So, with that admission, I really should be a lot more humble. Here are a few sincere questions, maybe you can help me with them:

Does anyone have any good science to back up any claims about what makes life and the universe tick? The theories are interesting, of course. But I'd really be more interested in something you can verify the way you can verify claims about medical powders. Can science do that? Because I've been under the impression (maybe mistaken!) that it couldn't.

I read about scientists trying to discovery a "theory of everything" once. Have they figured that out yet? Do they have evidence? What course do I need to take learn about it and prove it in a lab for myself?

Sorry if my sarcasm has annoyed all of you. I'll stop being sarcastic. I'm sincerely, humbly hoping for truth.

Thanks.

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If you really have something that would debunk our statements, you would have provided proof already instead of all your belittling and sarcastic remarks that actually have no valid content.

Have you made any positive, scientific statements about the nature and origin of life and the universe? If so, I missed it. Please explain again.

[The Grand Nudger]

Does anyone have any good science to back up any claims about what makes life and the universe tick?

Um yeah, try biology and physics..........Is there anything specific you had in mind?

The theories are interesting, of course. But I'd really be more interested in something you can verify the way you can verify claims about medical powders. Can science do that? Because I've been under the impression (maybe mistaken!) that it couldn't.

You seem to be under the impression that a theory is a guess. If you couldn't verify, falsify, and reproduce the contents of a theory it would not be a theory.

I read about scientists trying to discovery a "theory of everything" once. Have they figured that out yet? Do they have evidence? What course do I need to take learn about it and prove it in a lab for myself?

Unification, the TOE...nope, they haven't (unless they have- and simply haven't realized it yet).

[Akincana Krishna dasa]

Does anyone have any good science to back up any claims about what makes life and the universe tick?

Um yeah, try biology and physics..........Is there anything specific you had in mind?

Where was I before I was born? What will happen after I die? Why did I take the birth I took? Why this gender, this race, this mother and father? Sometimes I want things that I can't have - why? Why do I have to get old and die?

That's a just a few questions off the cuff, I could think of zillions more, but maybe we'll just start with a few simple ones.

Can biology or physics, or any other scientific discipline, answer these questions? And if so, is there evidence to support the answers?

---

I read about scientists trying to discovery a "theory of everything" once. Have they figured that out yet? Do they have evidence? What course do I need to take learn about it and prove it in a lab for myself?

Unification, the TOE...nope, they haven't (unless they have- and simply haven't realized it yet).
[/quote]
Interesting point.

What would such a theory even look like, and what type of evidence would one expect to support it? Can anyone say anything about those questions?

[Minimalist]

Where was I before I was born?

Well,. you've convinced me. Leave the heavy thinking to people who can handle it and you just sit in the corner and repeat "hare krishna" over and over again until you're blue in the face.

It's obviously all you can handle.

[Akincana Krishna dasa]

Where was I before I was born?

Well,. you've convinced me. Leave the heavy thinking to people who can handle it and you just sit in the corner and repeat "hare krishna" over and over again until you're blue in the face.

It's obviously all you can handle.

I'm sorry you felt my question warranted such a sarcastic reply.

If you have an answer, even if you think it's obvious, please just say what it is. If you have any evidence for your answer, that would really help too.

And if you thought that question was too weird, how about any of the other ones? Any help you can give me on those?

[The Grand Nudger]

Where was I before I was born?

"You" were nowhere, so far as we can tell. "Where was my car before it was manufactured". I could hazard a guess as to where parts of what would one day become you -could- have been, but I doubt that anyone was gathering data in preparation for your birth so that they might one day satisfy this question of yours at it's most personal level amigo......

What will happen after I die?

The sun will rise and set, rain will fall on rooftops, people will go to work...etc etc etc

Why did I take the birth I took?

Do you imagine that you had some role in that decision? That would be a strange assumption..don't you think?

Why this gender, this race, this mother and father?

In human beings, sex is determined by the presence of a "Y" chromosome, the default "XX" being female. In human beings, sex gametes have a haploid number of chromosomes which is doubled during fertilization to form a "complete cell", the 23rd pair of the chromosome determining sex by the presence of the above mentioned XY or XX (this -is- high school biology btw....). Your "race" whatever that may be, is a collection of inheritable traits that we've decided to make some sort of dividing line between ourselves for whatever reason. This last one seems nonsensical...if you were born from some other mother and father (mine- for example) you would still be "you"...just a different "you" call it, for the lulz.."me".

Sometimes I want things that I can't have - why?

Because your desires exceed your means or ability?

Why do I have to get old and die?

This is a really interesting one. One of the more interesting observations of this is that a compromise is made between aging and cancerous cells. I'll try to dig up some of my favorites for you if you're interested in this as anything more than a general question meant to sound deep and worthy but ultimately just a sound bite.

That's a just a few questions off the cuff, I could think of zillions more, but maybe we'll just start with a few simple ones.

Can biology or physics, or any other scientific discipline, answer these questions? And if so, is there evidence to support the answers?

Yup. Biology and physics can answer those things which pertain to biology and physics (and all of those answers are demonstrable...that's the whole point). Still plenty we're looking into.

What would such a theory even look like, and what type of evidence would one expect to support it? Can anyone say anything about those questions?

I guess that depends on who you ask. Some folks feel that all of our current theories are very suited or describing interactions at the level (and of the type) that they were designed to describe..and that if you took them all as a whole we have a TOE. Others look for a more thorough and complete unification of all the sciences (for a long while physics was pointed to for the likely candidate).

[downbeatplumb]

Where was I before I was born?

In your mums womb.
Before that you were potential in your father and mothers DNA.

What will happen after I die?

You will either slowly decompose or be be burn't your atoms will return to the universe to make other things.

Why did I take the birth I took?

You were the winning sperm that met with your mums egg.

Why this gender, this race

Learn some biology.

this mother and father?

Seriously!

Sometimes I want things that I can't have - why?

Because you are a human.

Why do I have to get old and die?

Because evolution favours the young.

Can biology or physics, or any other scientific discipline, answer these questions? And if so, is there evidence to support the answers?

Yes the answers to these rather banal questions are easily answered by science.

The evidence to support the answers run to libraries worth of research and tests.

Read something other than one of your religious books.

The truth will blow your mind.

[The Grand Nudger]

It isn't likely that a cursory glance of some science is going to blow anyone's mind. Faced with magical answers and the humdrum of biology, for example, the magical answers certainly -seem-, at least superficially, to be much more mind-blowing. Unfortunately, whether or not something blows our minds has very little to do with it's accuracy. Personally, I prefer my explanations to have explanatory power, rather than mind-blowing ability.....but it's difficult to ignore the tendency we seem to have to prefer to mind-blowing, magical, and fanciful explanations of this or that.

Imagine, for a moment, how plants follow the sun (one of my favorites). One could imagine themselves to death on something as blissfully simple as this...blowing their mind with every step...but the reality of the matter is that it is a mechanical process, completely and utterly unremarkable in the main.

[downbeatplumb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0teSHmk2aM

[Kayenneh]

Where was I before I was born? What will happen after I die? Why did I take the birth I took? Why this gender, this race, this mother and father? Sometimes I want things that I can't have - why? Why do I have to get old and die?

Can biology or physics, or any other scientific discipline, answer these questions? And if so, is there evidence to support the answers?

'You' simply weren't. 'You' had no say in what gender you took or what race. It was your parent's haploid cells that met, merged and got to evolve into 'you' with all your potentials. DNA is very peculiar that way, you might for instance have a gene that says you will with 90% certainty have an heart attack by the time you turn 50, yet you never get it. So that proves that though our blueprint deals us certain cards in the beginning, something else forms our lives too. Culture, family and environment have a huge impact on the way we become. Why it is so hard to pinpoint what makes a person tick, so to speak, is that there are too many variables to count, but every encounter, every protein your body makes, every decision you took, made you 'you'. All you are, is the sum of your parts. Your DNA and the environment you were brought up in.

If there is indeed something beyond that (I imagine you're thinking about a soul?) I would be highly surprised. Human anatomy is another favorite subject of mine, and all data we have today proves that everything in the body is either coded by our DNA or then it's an infection of some kind. Neuroscience is terribly fascinating and there is still lots to be discovered in the field, but I seriously think that nothing will ever prove that we carry around an entity that is part of us,l yet aren't, and above all is immortal and yet can be affected by the things we do while we're living.

I can give you a certain answer to what will happen to 'you' when you die. If I am correct in my statement that all one sees is what humans are, you cease to exist. Your body will eventually break down and in a sense live on in the world, because your atoms and energy can't disappear. But as I said, we already do this on a daily basis, the energy and small building blocks we carry are recycled every day. If there is an afterlife (and for such a place to exist there is a need for something to live on after the body is gone), we have as many speculations as there are people. Everyone is allowed to have their fantasies about it, but no one gets the right to say that 'this is it!'. All I know is that the body breaks down and consciousness is lost. That is a fact about death, the rest is speculation.

Now, I'm not pleased either to know with certainty that I'll die and that it can happen any day. But I have come to terms with it. Unfortunately our success as a species and the whole gist of evolution is for the old generations to give room to the new, improved generation. The most unsatisfying answer to your question is, if there is a reason behind it all, we don't know. Again, one can make all the speculations one wants, but the truth is that all generations before us died and so will we.

As for the things you want to have, but can't, is it too personal to ask what do you want? One thing I learned after I quit my faith was that life isn't fair, no one 'up there' is looking out for me. And what a wonderful thought it is. If life was fair, we would not only deserve the good that happened to us, we would also deserve all the bad things. Some wishes aren't realistic ('I wish to live forever!') and others can't simply become true ('I want to win the jackpot in the lottery every week!'), so what we wish for should be thought trough with great care. But I though most people learned as children that you can't have all you want, because then everyone would be entitled to the same and how would the resources ever be enough? Instead it is good to learn how to put things into perspective and be satisfied with what you've got and work towards bettering the things you can't stand living with.

At the same time, you're dealing with medical powders... not an explanation for reality. Not a grand explanation for how things work and why things are how they are. Not knocking what you're into - but you might want to agree, you're working on a totally different set of questions and answers. So while I might want to consult your knowledge if I have a medical problem, why should I consult you on issues about the basis of existence? Have you done any lab experiments to test something about that?

I understand your point, though. You're telling me how science works, because you want science when talking about things.

I understand your point too, I just wanted to be frank and say "this is what I do", so that I don't either claim to have more knowledge than I do. The thing is however, chemistry is like Legos. It doesn't matter if we're talking medicinal chemistry, cells, inorganic or organic chemistry, we only have a certain set of building blocks that we can play with. Do you agree with me that all materia is made from atoms, ions and molecules? If so, everything we see and can observe is made of the same stuff, forged in stars a long time ago. Down on molecular level is a world so different from the one we observe with the naked eye, but as we pan out, we can see that those minuscule movements between the particles can be seen on our level too. Let's continue with my example with powders and take two we all probably know quite well, table sugar and starch. We can see the individual crystals in the sugar, we can observe that they are quite smooth and the crystals will not lock together mechanically and thus it flows quite smoothly when poured. Starch on the other hand have a lot of molecular forces that pull the particles together, making it a very hard powder to pour and it forms clumps easily.

What I want to illustrate with this, that the human has a lot more complex molecules in it's body and if something so simple as powders are affected by the smallest particles in it, why shouldn't the same apply to us? We consist of complex molecules, thus the larger picture is also more complex than that of sugar. I am convinced that there is no magical power behind our being, but in understanding the small parts of the human body, we can better understand ourselves as a whole being.