How do I know the things I know?

[Annik]

How do you know your Guru really saw God? I'm not saying he's lying, I'm saying he might only think he's seen God. The human mind is rife with mechanisms that convince us we are right. Attribution Theory is a biggie where religion is concerned, but obviously not the only one.

[Shell B]

Krishnacookie, you say God is not cheap. I responded with the question of whether you have to pay him. You didn't really follow that far, did you?

[IATIA]

God's not cheap.

That's how I know God exists.

So how much does god cost? Or is this the sacrificial virgin thing?

[Akincana Krishna dasa]

God is not easy to realize. That was the meaning of "not cheap."

Let's say I want to verify the theory of relativity. I don't like to accept things without knowing it's true for myself. I can't just accept the authority of Einstein. I want to really know for myself.

So is verifying the theory of relativity a really easy thing to do? Is that verification something any fool off the street can do for themselves, so that it can be proved?

Verifying something like that takes serious study and discipline. Most people just accept it on authority.

In the same way, if you're not ready to accept the God theory on authority, you need to verify God' existence for yourself, it's certainly possible. But it's a really serious thing to do. Any fool off the street can't demand proof for God - most people have no clue what or who God even is. Realizing God takes serious study and discipline. But it's certainly possible, just as many many spiritual scientists have experienced God in the past.

In other words, when people say "where's the proof?" it sounds as childish as a crazy theist coming into this forum and saying "I haven't seen any monkey's giving birth to human's lately - evolution is so dumb! where's the proof?"

What' you're going to say to that person are things like "do you have any understanding of what evolution is? have you taken 5 minutes to study it? where do you get off even talking about it, forget about claiming it's not true?"

[Darkstar]

God is not easy to realize. That was the meaning of "not cheap."

Let's say I want to verify the theory of relativity. I don't like to accept things without knowing it's true for myself. I can't just accept the authority of Einstein. I want to really know for myself.

So is verifying the theory of relativity a really easy thing to do? Is that verification something any fool off the street can do for themselves, so that it can be proved?

Verifying something like that takes serious study and discipline. Most people just accept it on authority.

Err...no. You see, science has rigorous peer review. Science tests and retests its ideas before concluding something. A 'theory' in science is something that has passed rigorous testing from many sources. They take a hypothesis and devise a test that will either provide evidence for or against the hypothesis. If the hypothesis is wrong, this doesn't mean that science was wrong; either way, science has learned something. Science has earned the right to be trusted.

Not so with religion. Religion starts with a conclusion: god exists. It then seeks anything that can be interpreted as evidence for god, and throws out everything else. It took the church centuries to admit that the earth wasn't flat. We laugh now at the idea, but in a few hundred years, people may be laughing at the ideas held now.

In the same way, if you're not ready to accept the God theory on authority, you need to verify God' existence for yourself, it's certainly possible. But it's a really serious thing to do. Any fool off the street can't demand proof for God - most people have no clue what or who God even is. Realizing God takes serious study and discipline. But it's certainly possible, just as many many spiritual scientists have experienced God in the past.

No one knows what or who god is because everyone defines him differently. He was deliberately defined in vague terms so he couldn't be disproven. It is not certainly possible to prove god, or someone would have done so by now. Many 'spiritual scientists' were dangerously ignorant. They said that Zeus caused lightning and Posiedon caused tsunamis. You are using them as a source of accurate knowledge?

In other words, when people say "where's the proof?" it sounds as childish as a crazy theist coming into this forum and saying "I haven't seen any monkey's giving birth to human's lately - evolution is so dumb! where's the proof?"

Those people have no idea what evolution is. I don't know how you claim to know what god is in such detail when he is supposed to be unknowable (another shield against falsifiablilty).

What' you're going to say to that person are things like "do you have any understanding of what evolution is? have you taken 5 minutes to study it? where do you get off even talking about it, forget about claiming it's not true."

Yeah...so...what is your point? Many people have said that the quickest way to turn someone into an atheist is to get them to read the bible. In fact atheists tend to know more about religion than theists.

[IATIA]

You mean self-hypnosis.

There is no authority on god as there is no proof.

Einstein is not the authority on relativity, but rather the developer of the concept, the hypothesis if you will. It has since been proven over the years by various scientists from around the world and the proofs and experiments are open for all to see. Many disagreed with Einstein at the time and even Einstein himself took issues with some of his own hypotheses.

[Akincana Krishna dasa]

Err...no. You see, science has rigorous peer review. Science tests and retests its ideas before concluding something. A 'theory' in science is something that has passed rigorous testing from many sources. They take a hypothesis and devise a test that will either provide evidence for or against the hypothesis. If the hypothesis is wrong, this doesn't mean that science was wrong; either way, science has learned something. Science has earned the right to be trusted.

Vedic spiritual culture also has rigorous peer review. It's called guru, sadhu and sastra. I'm sorry if you don't know what that is - it's basically a checks and balances system that we don't accept truth unless it's confirmed by several sources. Many people have done the tests, many people have gotten the same results.

[IATIA]

Vedic spiritual culture also has rigorous peer review. It's called guru, sadhu and sastra. I'm sorry if you don't know what that is - it's basically a checks and balances system that we don't accept truth unless it's confirmed by several sources. Many people have done the tests, many people have gotten the same results.

Okay, please elaborate on some of the empirical data, experiments and proofs.

[Akincana Krishna dasa]

Not so with religion. Religion starts with a conclusion: god exists. It then seeks anything that can be interpreted as evidence for god, and throws out everything else. It took the church centuries to admit that the earth wasn't flat. We laugh now at the idea, but in a few hundred years, people may be laughing at the ideas held now.

Religion has established a conclusion that is verifiable and has been consistently verified by saints for many many generations.

When you talk about "throws out everything else" what does that mean, exactly? The evidence that there is no God? Cause I'd like to know if you have some.

Please don't mix me up with christian church politics. Obviously they've done a really sloppy job, it's not my scene at all.

[Darkstar]

Vedic spiritual culture also has rigorous peer review. It's called guru, sadhu and sastra. I'm sorry if you don't know what that is - it's basically a checks and balances system that we don't accept truth unless it's confirmed by several sources. Many people have done the tests, many people have gotten the same results.

Uh...what are 'the tests'? You mean like these?
Prayer
Psychic powers

This is apparently an actual defense of god talking to people (google it if you like). Note how it says things like "My overhead was on a tall cart. I tried to get a shorter cart but they didn’t have one, so I had to stand instead of being able to sit down and teach. After teaching this way for about six months, one day I heard in my mind, why don’t you buy a taller stool? I knew it wasn’t my idea, it was God." Really, you needed divine inspiration to figure out to buy a taller stool? Come on...