The Will to Believe

[Darkstar]

[IATIA]

Does this mean the Earth really is flat after all?

[Darkstar]

Does this mean the Earth really is flat after all?

Nope, because we've proven otherwise. If we hadn't proven it yet we could assume it was flat until proven otherwise. If the evidence fit, we could reasonable assume the earth was flat, even if not proven. However, he sets no time limit on finding the evidence. Although he does say that counter-evidence would eventually disprove it, and redefining it ad infinitum would also fail, this hasn't held true for god..

[Minimalist]

William James was born at the Astor House in New York City. He was the son of Henry James Sr., a noted and independently wealthy Swedenborgian theologian

We had one of those assholes around here, too. He was just as fucked up as our resident baptist shitheads.

[Comprehender]

In which, it is argued basically that religion makes you feel good, and therefore you should follow it, even if god isn't real. This is the pragmatist theory of truth from The Will to Believe. Said theory also ties in with self-fulfilling beliefs (assuming they are positive), which James mentions. However, James had argued that this theory wasn't necessary for the belief in god.

I read a little of him & find it interesting, although I think it is best understood in light of Paul Tillich's idea of "ultimate concern."

Some like Einstein have implied that imagination is really the motivating force of progress, & not so much logic. After all, if it's never been considered or done before, how "logical" could it be, right?

Goals are functional illusions... goals are having faith in something that doesn't exist right now - it's a belief in something that is unprovable at this moment. We need goals, to progress. But some goals are obviously better than other goals.

Worship is mostly considered to be religiously-oriented, yet worship means to adore or idolize, which can be applied to anything. Tillich explained that God is that which we are "ultimately concerned" about - what we adore, or idolize based on our daily habits, not so much based on our professed religious belief or lack of.

The key is to figuring out which of all concerns are most genuine to what we truly ultimately are concerned about. IE: If I really do want to get the most of life, to be healthy, I will eat healthy & exercise - I will back up my philosophical ultimate concern with practically applied ultimate concern.

[Comprehender]

Another related thought that I've been trying to wrap my mind & emotions around for a couple of years now...

The "will to believe" is similar to what a friend said, "Functional illusions are priceless."
If you think about it, they are!
They say that in pharmaceutical studies, a medicine only has to pass the placebo effect just barely to pass the "FDA" or whoever approves it. It might be more healthy to take the placebo, without all of the nasty side-effects.

Can we make our own placebo effect, even knowing about the placebo effect?
HOW?

There are some beliefs that seem to be really good to believe in at first, but in reality are not so good... IE: You meet somebody who you fall in infatuation with only to find out later you were dreaming big time. Or... as in the case of religion, some put all their faith in a scapegoat human sacrifice - to realize later it isn't the most functional to believe someone else must suffer for my mistakes & get me off the hook from improving where needed.

So, in a way it gives us freedom to realize that everything is illusion - & that we can pick and choose which illusions we want to invest thought, emotion and action into. Yet, how much can we fool ourselves? How much faith & passion can we really stir up while knowing that we are consciously illuding ourselves?

(I'm sorting my thoughts, so bare with me while I argue with myself. )
Actually, we are so freaking clueless! Compared to all there is to know & understand, we don't know s---! We may think that we are illuding ourselves, but we really don't even know that!

But then, we are walking a tight rope between falling too hard for illusions only to come crashing down... & on the other side, falling for a life-less passion-less life.

How do we know which illusions are functional & which aren't? Logic can't really be part of illusion, without messing up the illusion. Who wants to watch a movie with somebody pointing out how unreal everything is? Trial & error is the only way to really know, I guess.

To be functional, must an illusion be temporary - not clinged to for dear life?

Some of my functional illusions:
* I can make a positive difference in some way.
* I have some natural talents and have developed related skills - so along with spiritual energy assistance, I can do extraordinary things.
* My body is amazingly intelligent and knows how to heal itself & have great energy & takes care of me, as long as I take care of my body.

[Anomalocaris]

Some like Einstein have implied that imagination is really the motivating force of progress, & not so much logic.

Was he able to bring Snowwhite and the seven dwarves into reality, or was he not imaginative enough?

[Darkstar]

You know, there are actual scientifically proven reasons why drugs work; the placebo effect may do something, but it isn't the main factor. (Although it may be noticeable in drugs like antidepressants, but not antibiotics)

They say that in pharmaceutical studies, a medicine only has to pass the placebo effect just barely to pass the "FDA" or whoever approves it. It might be more healthy to take the placebo, without all of the nasty side-effects.

Oh, so the side effects are real, but the healing isn't?
Nocebo

[Comprehender]

God, please help this Atheist forum to include at least some people who listen and do not merely repeat regurgitated atheistic articles of faith.

(done praying)

Chuck,
You don't know the future and every action you take, you make a lot of assumptions based on faith that it will turn out how you expect. I imagine most of the time it does, but there are no guarantees and thus you do act on faith. In fact, any goals you have involve imagination that is not based on current reality, but is based on what you hope to be.

DarkStar,
Healing is real too - but as Hippocrates said, "Natural foces within us are the true healers of disease."
Meds can help - but ultimately the body either heals or doesn't.

Doesn't it bother you when people accept the Atheist belief package which is all about rejecting another belief package?
Why don't they think for themselves, see the reality of creative power, & humbly acknowledge we have yet to understand it fully?

I like your quote about joining you in the darkness. I believe that before there was light, it was dark. I also am intrigued by possible interpretations of dark enegy/matter that permeate and make up most of our universe. Psychologically, I have been exploring aspects of my "shadow self" & I have to say it's not all roses - or rather it's a pretty thorny rosebush. Still, there is more freedom in not being dependent upon the need to illusionally selectively focus only on what is comfortable, but seeing more perspectives and being able to choose better.

[Darkstar]

God, please help this Atheist forum to include at least some people who listen and do not merely repeat regurgitated atheistic articles of faith.

(done praying)

Chuck,
You don't know the future and every action you take, you make a lot of assumptions based on faith that it will turn out how you expect. I imagine most of the time it does, but there are no guarantees and thus you do act on faith. In fact, any goals you have involve imagination that is not based on current reality, but is based on what you hope to be.

Yeah, I have 'faith' that earth won't blow up in the next five seconds. Is it at all reasonable to even consider such a thing possible, though?

DarkStar,
Healing is real too - but as Hippocrates said, "Natural foces within us are the true healers of disease."
Meds can help - but ultimately the body either heals or doesn't.

Yeaaah....what's your point? What does that have to do with faith in your body's healing capabilities? This is not to say that attitude has absolutely no effect, but for medicine, antibiotics in particular, you will need the actual thing; positive thinking won't suffice.

Doesn't it bother you when people accept the Atheist belief package which is all about rejecting another belief package?
Why don't they think for themselves, see the reality of creative power, & humbly acknowledge we have yet to understand it fully?

Maybe because you just made a strawman. The 'atheist belief package' is not a belief package, but the lack of a single belief. We do think for ourselves, and who said we have total understanding of the world? Also what does creative power have to do with the topic at hand?

I like your quote about joining you in the darkness. I believe that before there was light, it was dark. I also am intrigued by possible interpretations of dark enegy/matter that permeate and make up most of our universe. Psychologically, I have been exploring aspects of my "shadow self" & I have to say it's not all roses - or rather it's a pretty thorny rosebush. Still, there is more freedom in not being dependent upon the need to illusionally selectively focus only on what is comfortable, but seeing more perspectives and being able to choose better.