Atheismix

[FaithAffirmed]

to me it comes down to what Dawkins says, something like, "good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but it takes a religion to make good people do bad things"! Personally I think it should be widened to ideology and acknowledge that religion can make bad people do good things but it still scares the hell outta me ... no gods will ever scare me, their followers do!

Always take the question and flip it before you ask it. As you quoted "...it takes a religion to make good people do bad things." There are countless examples of religion taking bad people and making them do good things.

Not trying to be funny mate but did you actually read what I wrote? I already said that bit, the bit you appeared critical of!

Kyu

I'll be honest actually I missed that with all the "bad" "good" in the sentence. My eyes must have glazed over it. Sorry about that, and I do understand the fears of followers. Hell I get nervous dealing with those people as well. Anywho again sorry for missing that!

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Sorry but I can't imagine 911 just as likely being caused by cheese enthusiasts mate. I think the belief certainly matters.

And I don't know if you've noticed, but yes - there are a lot of other ideologies that people have killed under. But religion is a big one! Dying for a supreme being, especially when you're expecting to go to a martyrs heaven for doing so - is quite a motivator if you so strongly believe it! I wouldn't expect the same from cheese enthusiasts to be honest. I don't see it as impossible but... - not exactly as likely!

EvF

Religion is only a big one because it deals with the big questions. Where do we come from? What is our purpose? How should I live my life? What will happen after I die? These questions when believed to be answered lead to fierce loyalty. Its the same reason people were willing to kill for communism vs. capitalism. But the tool doesn't cause the killing, the people do. Just like all those gun people believe "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Even though I'm not a big supporter of guns, they hit the nail on the head there. The same reason we can't say violent video games causes aggression, rather aggressive kids will be drawn to violent video games. People who have no hope and nothing else or are mentally unstable will be drawn to something that will "give them answers." And its THOSE kinds of people who are willing to do the killing.

[Violet]

To know that other veiwpoints exist, and to respect them is a functional philosophy... but it suffers from questions such as:

If person A veiws rape as a linkage to a deity, should they be able to rape person B out of respect for their philosophy?

Most things have limits... and respect is one of them. It can go a long ways, but as with tolerance: it can only go so far. Unless you cross the lines with faith, as those of faith often do: your faith will be respectable.

Guns do kill people... but people murder people. A slick floor can kill people... but it takes something that can plan to commit a crime. A gun killing person A is a tragedy... person B who planned to kill A with the gun has commited a crime.

A person who forgot to checkout one thing at a grocery store, and walks out has had an accident. An accident can be tragic, funny, or stupid... but it is not a crime when the unexpected occurs. It is a crime when a malicious action was planned to occur. This might include theft, rape, murder... of the kind that the truly evil, or tragically unfortunate, would commit.

But for a moment of lost control to be a crime? If person A were to go crazy for a few minutes because of sexual lust... and it resulted in the rape of person B... it would be a tragedy, and A would be sent to yoga class (or something) to help him stay in control in future, and recompanse (sp?) B until he/she felt that the damage from the accident had been paid for.

This is a crime: Person C stakes cyber-stalks person D for a week, gets D to meet him face to face, and rapes him/her. This is the sort of person that should be targeted by the law... not people who have accidents. It is a criminal who is willing to do the killing... and our current gun laws (keep them away from civilians when possible) only let true criminals get away with more crime, without as much fear of being shot.

/yawn, i'd write more, but it is 3:00, and i is L'sleepy. Have a good day.

[Moonman]

[quote='FaithAffirmed' pid='24959' dateline='1249594148']

9/11 was a false flag operation, an inside job. Who profitted from the war??

[Eilonnwy]

[quote='FaithAffirmed' pid='24959' dateline='1249594148']

9/11 was a false flag operation, an inside job. Who profitted from the war??

Goddamnit, we already have a truther thread. Go there for your nonsense.


FaithAffirmed,

You say Faith is good for helping people with addiction. It is not. I fucking hate the AA program. If you want to see how much I hate it, I've written extensively about it here: http://candycolouredfrown.blogspot.com/2...igion.html

You seem to be missing the point others are making. Good people do good things. Bad people do bad things, but it takes religion to make good people do bad things.

To take a saying from Christopher Hitchens, name something good that people do that can't possibly be done by secular means? You can't name any, no one can. Hitchens is still waiting for an answer to that challenge. Now name something bad people have done in the name of religion. You can think of many.

[FaithAffirmed]

To know that other veiwpoints exist, and to respect them is a functional philosophy... but it suffers from questions such as:

If person A veiws rape as a linkage to a deity, should they be able to rape person B out of respect for their philosophy?

Most things have limits... and respect is one of them. It can go a long ways, but as with tolerance: it can only go so far. Unless you cross the lines with faith, as those of faith often do: your faith will be respectable.

Guns do kill people... but people murder people. A slick floor can kill people... but it takes something that can plan to commit a crime. A gun killing person A is a tragedy... person B who planned to kill A with the gun has commited a crime.

A person who forgot to checkout one thing at a grocery store, and walks out has had an accident. An accident can be tragic, funny, or stupid... but it is not a crime when the unexpected occurs. It is a crime when a malicious action was planned to occur. This might include theft, rape, murder... of the kind that the truly evil, or tragically unfortunate, would commit.

But for a moment of lost control to be a crime? If person A were to go crazy for a few minutes because of sexual lust... and it resulted in the rape of person B... it would be a tragedy, and A would be sent to yoga class (or something) to help him stay in control in future, and recompanse (sp?) B until he/she felt that the damage from the accident had been paid for.

This is a crime: Person C stakes cyber-stalks person D for a week, gets D to meet him face to face, and rapes him/her. This is the sort of person that should be targeted by the law... not people who have accidents. It is a criminal who is willing to do the killing... and our current gun laws (keep them away from civilians when possible) only let true criminals get away with more crime, without as much fear of being shot.

/yawn, i'd write more, but it is 3:00, and i is L'sleepy. Have a good day.

Respect: Willingness to show consideration or appreciation.

respect. (n.d.). The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Retrieved August 07, 2009, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/respect

Tolerate: To allow without prohibiting or opposing

Tolerate. (n.d.). The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Retrieved August 07, 2009, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Tolerate

Taking into account the definition of respect and tolerance you can tell that they are very different concepts. I can respect faith without tolerating the harm it causes. I can respect a man who can fire a gun with precise accuracy and incredible speed but I will not tolerate him using that talent to fire at the person who slipped in the grocery store. You make it a good point to show exactly what a crime is but we have to break down the difference between a "loss of control" and a "planned crime."

Someone taking a mind altering drug which incites a homicidal rampage is a person who has lost control. Someone who was "gone crazy for a minutes with lust" is someone who is IN control. They chose to adhere to the "lust" and rape person B. A person doesn't just go "crazy" for a few minutes and rapes somebody. That kind of temporary psychosis has a clear and defining cause. And if there is NO clear and defining cause to the temporary psychosis then that person was in control and chose the deviant route.

I even have a lack of respect for the person going on the homicidal rampage after taking the mind-altering drug, unless it was slipped into their coffee or something. Those who knowingly take the drug, SHOULD recognize the possible consequences of taking those drugs. Its VERY rare that a person "loses control" and commits a crime.

Anywho, lets tie it all back to my support for faith. Faith is much like a gun, when wielded properly and handled professionally it can accomplish many good things. But, like a gun, can and often is used to cause murder and other deviant behaviors. But its the LEGAL system that prevents and punishes those crimes. My respect for faith is strong, but my tolerance for its misuse is none.

"My right to punch ends where your nose begins."

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BY the way Saerules, awesome avatar. I love the Philosoraptor series.

Incidentally it might be time to plug my blog that I'm hoping to bring some traffic to.
I'm blogging at the website

Atheismix.com

Its my own personal blog thats based off of a Conservative Christian Talk radio. I blog about specific broadcast and point out the inconsistencies and misinformation spewed from their mouths. Issues include; Online pornography is destroying our society, parents guide to preventing homosexuality, Cases for Creationism.

I will be inviting people from both camps to come and engage in intellectual debate. I only hope to see you guys commenting and offering your opinion. Please take a stop by the Purpose page to read what the site is about.

I hope to see you guys there!

[Kyuuketsuki]

I'll be honest actually I missed that with all the "bad" "good" in the sentence. My eyes must have glazed over it. Sorry about that, and I do understand the fears of followers. Hell I get nervous dealing with those people as well. Anywho again sorry for missing that!

No prob ... I always warm to someone who's willing apologise

Kyu

[FaithAffirmed]

You say Faith is good for helping people with addiction. It is not. I fucking hate the AA program. If you want to see how much I hate it, I've written extensively about it here: http://candycolouredfrown.blogspot.com/2...igion.html

You seem to be missing the point others are making. Good people do good things. Bad people do bad things, but it takes religion to make good people do bad things.

To take a saying from Christopher Hitchens, name something good that people do that can't possibly be done by secular means? You can't name any, no one can. Hitchens is still waiting for an answer to that challenge. Now name something bad people have done in the name of religion. You can think of many.

Having taken an extensive course on the psychology of addictive and compulsive behavior I happen to know that spirituality is a key factor in resilience against addictions. In fact there is a list of factors you can take a look at.

Souce: adapted from Smith, Carolyn; Lizotte, Alan J; Thornberry, Terence P.; and Krohn, Marvin D. (1995). Resilient youth: Identifying factors that prevent high-risk youth from engaging in delinquency and drug use. Current Perspective on Aging and the Life Cycle, 4, 217-247

I'm certainly not missing the point, in fact you seem to miss the point that Kyu made that even I misread.

to me it comes down to what Dawkins says, something like, "good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but it takes a religion to make good people do bad things"! Personally I think it should be widened to ideology and acknowledge that religion can make bad people do good things but it still scares the hell outta me

Even Kyu recognizes that Faith can make bad people do good things which is not necessarily my entire point. Faith is a MOTIVATING tool which pushes people to do things. Heres where I can tie it in to your clever Christopher Hitchens quote. He offers a challenge with an obvious answer but a naive outlook. Yes, anything done for religion can be done in a secular way. But the naivety of the question is that even though it CAN be done in a secular way, it wouldn't have been done without Faith as a motivator.

[Violet]

I agree with your response to my post in the most part faith, but as rape is incredibly stupid, and people shouldn't be that stupid, i usually refer to their lapse of intelligence (however momentary) as a loss of control over the situation. I agree with you 100% in that instance if people can really be that stupid all the time...

"Its VERY rare that a person "loses control" and commits a crime." -FaithAffirmed

It happens all the time, as defined in American law... but in my line of thinking (however misguided that may be), a person who has lost control cannot commit a crime. I concur with your response, and am glad to see that a person of faith listining to rational discourse.

[Minimalist]

The quote in question is by Steven Weinberg, not Richard Dawkins.

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Steven Weinberg

[Moonman]

Nonsense? So that is how you treat your guests? Fuck you and this head wreck of a forum. A bunch of assholes who all want to speak at once.