Atheismix

[leo-rcc]

Looks like someone is a little butt hurt because we weren't standing in line to agree with him or cheer him on.

[Amphora]

Welcome to the forums FaithAffirmed

Amp

[FaithAffirmed]

Theres a key difference between believing that shooting people in the head is martyrdom and believing in God. The people who are believed to shoot someone in the head to achieve eternal bliss are told this NOT by the scripture, but by a person. A person who manipulates that motivating tool to be used in a deadly manner.

How's that a key difference? Whether you're motivated to kill by your belief in scripture or belief in a certain person, it's the same result, carnage. In these extremes of faith in such.

EvF

But there is a major difference because its never the belief in God that causes the carnage. Its belief in the person manipulating that faith. Therefore we can't BLAME the "God" for all the carnage, who we blame are those irresponsible tyrants manipulating the people through the use of their faith. Its a very big difference. So instead of spending our energy hating God we should hate the people who lead the Crusades and hate the people who take those beliefs and turn it into massacres.

[Kyuuketsuki]

But there is a major difference because its never the belief in God that causes the carnage. Its belief in the person manipulating that faith. Therefore we can't BLAME the "God" for all the carnage, who we blame are those irresponsible tyrants manipulating the people through the use of their faith. Its a very big difference. So instead of spending our energy hating God we should hate the people who lead the Crusades and hate the people who take those beliefs and turn it into massacres.

Is anyone saying we hate a god? If we genuinely hated a specific god wouldn't that mean we believe in that god? I know I don't hate a god ... even if I wanted to I wouldn't know which one to choose.

Kyu

[Edwardo Piet]

To say the belief itself just doesn't matter, is missing something:

I already gave an example:

[...] Dying for a supreme being, especially when you're expecting to go to a martyrs heaven for doing so - is quite a motivator if you so strongly believe it! I wouldn't expect the same from cheese enthusiasts to be honest. I don't see it as impossible but... - not exactly as likely!

If the belief doesn't matter then that would mean that cheese enthusaists are just as likely to kill as those who believe they are going to a martyr's for blowing themselves and others up... because 'it's just about the people'... ummm I don't think so.

People are motivated by their beliefs. People are driven by their beliefs, not the other way around.

EvF

[FaithAffirmed]

To say the belief itself just doesn't matter, is missing something:

I already gave an example:

[...] Dying for a supreme being, especially when you're expecting to go to a martyrs heaven for doing so - is quite a motivator if you so strongly believe it! I wouldn't expect the same from cheese enthusiasts to be honest. I don't see it as impossible but... - not exactly as likely!

If the belief doesn't matter then that would mean that cheese enthusaists are just as likely to kill as those who believe they are going to a martyr's for blowing themselves and others up... because 'it's just about the people'... ummm I don't think so.

People are motivated by their beliefs. People are driven by their beliefs, not the other way around.

EvF

"If you act in the real world based on information that's not real, the results are impossible to facet.
But information is incapable of harm in of itself, ideas are neither good nor bad but merely as useful as what we do with them. Only actions can cause harm." - David Shore

If we consider beliefs as the ideas that they are. Then we can understand that the belief in God is neither good nor bad, its only actions that can cause harm. And those actions may be motivated by those beliefs. But those beliefs can be manipulated by people to perform HARMFUL ACTIONS. Therefore it was not the belief in God that caused the harm, it was the ACTION of MANIPULATION by a PERSON. That martyr believed that killing himself was the right choice because someone told him so. Had there been someone to tell him that religion is about performing acts of charity, he/she would not have committed that crime. The belief in God is neutral, what people DO with the belief is right or wrong.

[Edwardo Piet]

If we consider beliefs as the ideas that they are. Then we can understand that the belief in God is neither good nor bad, its only actions that can cause harm

If we consider beliefs as the ideas they are...then since morals are relative and no person can be objectively said to be more moral or immoral than anyone else, then the same is the case with ideas. And I would argue that in the same sense that I believe - subjectively - that killing is wrong for instance, I also believe that a belief that killing is a good thing is wrong also. So I see it that beliefs and ideas can be wrong in the same subjective, but morally relevant sense that actions can be.

And then you say that it's only the actions that cause the harm, but beliefs have a part in the cause of the actions - because beliefs motivate actions. So just as actions have a part in causing harm to people, beliefs have a part in causing such actions.

And those actions may be motivated by those beliefs. But those beliefs can be manipulated by people to perform HARMFUL ACTIONS.

Yes they can. But those actions are motivated by beliefs as you say right here, and as I am arguing here and have before - that therefore the beliefs still matter. Saying the actions can be motivated by the beliefs is supporting my argument.

Therefore it was not the belief in God that caused the harm, it was the ACTION of MANIPULATION by a PERSON.

Well... caused?

The act caused the harm, but acts can be motivated by beliefs - as you said - and thus the belief could have very well played a part in causing the act.

1. So I don't see a "but" because both factors are valid, both the belief and the individual as a whole.

2. It's not just the belief and it's not just the manipulation. Do you agree here?

3. If you agree, then what we disagree on is a matter of degree.

4. And I'm arguing that, for instance with 911, it was motivated for religious reasons, as is the case with much throughout history. It plays a large part - obviously I don't deny manipulation when it comes to religion - and nor do I need to to support my argument. It's not all black or white.

The belief in God, and the specific belief of the individual's belief in God - can still have had a part, even a large part in motivating such an act - as I'm arguing here. And as you said yourself above "And those actions may be motivated by those beliefs"

The belief in God is neutral, what people DO with the belief is right or wrong.

But beliefs are what motivate people. And motivations can be good or bad or right or wrong. What do you mean by 'what people do with their belief'? I'm not sure if I follow you there... How do you do something... with a belief? Isn't it rather that you do something because of a belief?

EvF