C---------

[Violet]

I understand perfectly EvF

Although I am certain there should be a number of 'exceptions' to our imperfection... and also certain that our current model is far from perfect: the current method is at least organized. Big changes are needed, it does nobody any good to deny this... and the strange thing is this: many would deny change because they feel it is unrealistic. There are still people who think that evolution (Change over time) is unrealistic. People thought gravity, the Earth orbiting Sol, meteorites, and many other real things to be unrealistic.

Just because something is new... and different perhaps... is no reason to call it unrealistic. Is 100% perfection in every way even possible? No, of course not... but you can get very close. 99% in all categories (non-overlapping), unlike 100%, is attainable.

Eilon, I am done debating this age line. I have said my piece, and it is irrefutable: everything is different. As such, a generalization is but a line of best fit, and misses the majority of those generalized. Some get hit dead on, others are slightly nicked, a few are closely missed... but there are also those far from the line. This has not been denied, nor can it be, and even perfect clones are different entities. As I said, I am done debating this... but you should honestly ask yourself if your points are really so true.

You can always take the 'it is simply unrealistic' view... but to be realistic: this view is unreasonable. POV determines one's reality, nothing more... and nothing less. This too is odd to debate, as the act of debating different viewpoints automatically proves it true. I will continue to try to be better than I am... and so I will always try to think about what makes <insert whatever> like it is... and how <insert whatever> could be better.

[Eilonnwy]

First, I don't think the age line misses anyone so much except in 1 direction, that being those mentally retarded, and we have a way of dealing with them. I do not believe there is any child so mature that waiting for legal stature at 18 seriously impedes them. So yes, the age line works. My points are true.

Theorizing what can be possible is always good, but it's important to realize that an idea does not work when it's been thoroughly refuted and move on.

On a side note, I've been re-watching Farscape, and a great conversation between Sikozu and Rygel reminded me of this topic.

---

SIKOZU
Do you have any idea how small you are?

RYGEL
You're not exactly a giant yourself.

SIKOZU
You have been reduced in size! You're hardly bigger than a filima bug now!

(Sikozu looks around a bit frantically.)

SIKOZU
Except... except this can't be happening.

RYGEL
(sighing)
Can't it?

SIKOZU
No... no. Reduction by... proportionately subtracting atoms would... leave our brains too simple to function.

RYGEL
So? Maybe they just made all our atoms smaller.

SIKOZU
But then we couldn't breathe normal sized air molecules, don't you see?

(Almost nicely recovered from a bit of a panic attack, soothing herself with the 'facts'.)

SIKOZU
No. No. This isn't happening because... it is not possible.

RYGEL
Your brain isn't functioning. Do you think this is all just a hallucination? Do you like that explanation better, hm?

SIKOZU
No... but I simply cannot comprehend how --

RYGEL
Neither can I. -- Who cares? We're here, they did it, and that's that. You consider yourself intelligent?

SIKOZU
(angry)
Yes, I do.

RYGEL
Then stop behaving like a child.

SIKOZU
I am not a child!

RYGEL
(makes a disbelieving noise)
You're an infant! You've studied but you haven't experienced. You know nothing of life.

SIKOZU
(sweetly insincere)
And you do?

RYGEL
I've been around long enough to know how ignorant I am. I don't assume the universe obeys my preconceptions. Hah! But I know a frelling fact when it hits me in the face.

---

[Violet]

It impedes me... your points are therefore invalid. o.o I already told you... I cannot state my very rare case... for a few very specific reasons, which I will not discuss. But know this, Eilon: it impedes me.

As far as I am aware, my ideas have only been refuted by statements of 'it is not realistic', or 'impossible'. I've not yet seen any reasonable refutations... and continuing this discussion this entire time has highlighted none of them. I honestly don't see how anyone could refute "It could be better".
.
...
.....
.......
... I.... am but a simple... inexperienced... child...? If this is so... then I do not beg to envy of you... Eilon...

... Far from it... in fact...

[Eilonnwy]

No, they are not. I have seen nothing to suggest you're more mature than the age you are, furthermore you refuse to elucidate why it impedes you. That's your choice and I'm not going to force you to reveal anything you don't want to. But I am a skeptic at heart, and without substantial evidence to refute a fact, I'm not going to accept it.

You can't expect me to go along with your "I have a reason but I'm not going to tell you" evidence. That's equivalent to no evidence at all.

[Violet]

Then you will forgive me, if I have seen nothing to suggest you are older than I.

I don't expect you to accept it, Eilon. Knowledge is very dangerous in the wrong hands. If I were to tell you the reasons: my personal facts would be automatically inferred.

[Eilonnwy]

Then you will forgive me, if I have seen nothing to suggest you are older than I.

I don't expect you to accept it, Eilon. Knowledge is very dangerous in the wrong hands. If I were to tell you the reasons: my personal facts would be automatically inferred.

Get a grip. I meant what I said not as an insult but an assurance you are where you should be. There's nothing wrong with maturing at the same rate as everyone else. There's not need to be insulting towards me because I don't think you're any better than where you age suggests you should be.

Every 16 year old I have ever met has claimed to be more mature than they really are. I include myself in that, even though I technically can't "meet" myself. You are no different.

[Edwardo Piet]

I was like that too Elionnwy. So there's just another person to support that theory.

I thought I was mature till I was 18, then I thought I definitely was.

Since then I've had more humility grow. I think in some ways I am and some ways I'm not.

Even the most mature person on the planet (if they couldn't actually be defined), isn't 100% mature. Apologies if I've done nothing more than state the obvious :S

EvF

[fr0d0]

As far as I am aware, my ideas have only been refuted by statements of 'it is not realistic', or 'impossible'. I've not yet seen any reasonable refutations...

But those are reasonable refutations. If your ideas are impractical ie not realistic or impossible then they fail a basic necessity of being unworkable.

[Violet]

A grip upon what? Are we all identical spoons made at a spoon factory? Everyone, and everything... is different. I am certainly not reassured by the amount of contradiction pouring from you... "We are not clones", "Wait, yes we are", "No, i never said that", "We're all clones". Honestly... that is reassuring?

What is the point in discussing this with you at all? It is like trying to make a theist see reason: very difficult. I discuss because I don't think you're stupid, Eilon. You haven't met many 16 year olds... have you...? I am insulted to be drawn into a class based society... especially one for how many years I have lived.

How can you refute my Hitler analogies when you say things like this? I'm baffled...

You are no different.

There's not need to be insulting towards me because I don't think you're any better than where you age suggests you should be.

I am no different? If you can honestly say that I am normal, a paradigm of my age: No WONDER you see SO MANY people JUST LIKE ME running about! Haha! The idea is absurd... how can you not see this?

"There's no need to be insulting towards me because I don't think you're better than what your ethnicity suggests you should be." Can you honestly not draw a parallel to this and what you just said? Age, ethnicity, sex, name, religious background... All of these can be used to compare what you just said... so forgive me if I can easily link a number of your statements to something that Hitler might have said.

Do you interpret the statement of "Everyone is special." to be "Nobody is."? I'm me, I am not you... You are not anyone else... and you are different from me. All of us are different... therefore none of us are the same... and therefore almost everyone is an exception to such a thing as an age-line.

"As immature as most 16 year olds"... /sigh, I tire quickly of being insulted, Eilon. I do not need reassurance from you... I get that from the people in my life who matter. Insults? I most defiantly don't need any more of those. You tell me to stop insulting you at every turn... but in many posts you do not respect the ideal so readily you ask of me. This is hypocrisy...

---

---

I was like that too Elionnwy. So there's just another person to support that theory.

I thought I was mature till I was 18, then I thought I definitely was.

Since then I've had more humility grow. I think in some ways I am and some ways I'm not.

Even the most mature person on the planet (if they couldn't actually be defined), isn't 100% mature. Apologies if I've done nothing more than state the obvious :S

EvF

---

We are never done growing because of our age, EvF... for as long as we are conscious: we can always grow a little more.

[Rhizomorph13]

You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake. You are the same decaying organic matter as everyone else, and we are all part of the same compost pile. ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club, Chapter 17