Sexual abuse 'in the DNA of Roman Church'

[Ziploc Surprise]

This is 16 minutes long but seriously, seriously, worth watching. Even I didn't know the system and how bad it was and I've been following this for a while. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-26/se...ch/4541866

[Aractus]

Thanks, it was very interesting. Mostly confirmed my existing opinions on the RCC, especially with regards to the fact that they've had a policy of protecting the image of the Church firstly, and moral and civil/criminal concerns secondly. It's political, it's an example of bad internal policies which were self-serving/self-preserving no matter the cost. It is what it is. The Vatican is its own sovereign State, and it can and does provide amnesty and refuge to those clergy who face criminal persecution. This isn't so much a bad thing on its own, but coupled with the fact that they preferred to protect priests who committed heinous criminal acts in order to preserve the image of the Church rather than do their civil duties and responsibilities in the sovereign States where they operate by reporting criminal activity to the authorities, we see a very toxic culture which is anything but ordained, holy or special.

[xXUKAtheistForTheTruthXx]

This is 16 minutes long but seriously, seriously, worth watching. Even I didn't know the system and how bad it was and I've been following this for a while. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-26/se...ch/4541866

This is seriously, seriously obvious

[Ziploc Surprise]

This is 16 minutes long but seriously, seriously, worth watching. Even I didn't know the system and how bad it was and I've been following this for a while. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-02-26/se...ch/4541866

This is seriously, seriously obvious

Not really obvious to me. I don't know the RCC system. The guy also brought up points that I should have thought of but didn't. Like the fact that about 50% of them aren't celibate. Their relationships might be legal (with consenting adults) though. This means that fifty percent of the watchers are barely capable of disciplining the pedophiles.

Furthermore treating child rape as a sin and not also as a crime by dealing with it internally means these guys think their law is somehow above the laws of their countries. I know they have a long history of being this way but I thought something would have forced a change by now.

[xXUKAtheistForTheTruthXx]

This is seriously, seriously obvious

Not really obvious to me. I don't know the RCC system. The guy also brought up points that I should have thought of but didn't. Like the fact that about 50% of them aren't celibate. Their relationships might be legal (with consenting adults) though. This means that fifty percent of the watchers are barely capable of disciplining the pedophiles.

Furthermore treating child rape as a sin and not also as a crime by dealing with it internally means these guys think their law is somehow above the laws of their countries. I know they have a long history of being this way but I thought something would have forced a change by now.

Forget the extremely bad system that the cardinals "maintain"
Just abolish the Vatican city so their asses are on the line in The Hague

[Aractus]

The guy also brought up points that I should have thought of but didn't. Like the fact that about 50% of them aren't celibate. Their relationships might be legal (with consenting adults) though. This means that fifty percent of the watchers are barely capable of disciplining the pedophiles.

I actually don't believe that claim. He didn't provide any evidence, all he said was that you only have to look at children they've fathered - any priest could have fathered a child before entering the priesthood that proves nothing on its own.

The idea that many of them - at all - would have "boyfriends" is completely absurd. Gay men make up what 2-3% of the male population, there's no way they'd be widespread homosexual relationships even if 50% of them had boyfriends.

[xXUKAtheistForTheTruthXx]

The guy also brought up points that I should have thought of but didn't. Like the fact that about 50% of them aren't celibate. Their relationships might be legal (with consenting adults) though. This means that fifty percent of the watchers are barely capable of disciplining the pedophiles.

I actually don't believe that claim. He didn't provide any evidence, all he said was that you only have to look at children they've fathered - any priest could have fathered a child before entering the priesthood that proves nothing on its own.

The idea that many of them - at all - would have "boyfriends" is completely absurd. Gay men make up what 2-3% of the male population, there's no way they'd be widespread homosexual relationships even if 50% of them had boyfriends.

So you support rapists?

[Ziploc Surprise]

The guy also brought up points that I should have thought of but didn't. Like the fact that about 50% of them aren't celibate. Their relationships might be legal (with consenting adults) though. This means that fifty percent of the watchers are barely capable of disciplining the pedophiles.

I actually don't believe that claim. He didn't provide any evidence, all he said was that you only have to look at children they've fathered - any priest could have fathered a child before entering the priesthood that proves nothing on its own.

The idea that many of them - at all - would have "boyfriends" is completely absurd. Gay men make up what 2-3% of the male population, there's no way they'd be widespread homosexual relationships even if 50% of them had boyfriends.

Just because homosexuals are a minority in the human population as a whole does not mean that they can not be over represented in certain groups. For example it used to be (and perhaps still is, I haven't seen the statistics on this recently) that Jews were about 2% of the population but about 60% of the comedians in the United States. Similarly I doubt you'd find many atheists in church or fundamentalist Christians in a porn shop...wait nix that last bit there my bullshit meter just went off.

Furthermore the person being interviewed said 50% of the priests had boyfriends and girlfriends. I would not be surprised if the priesthood attracts homosexuals, it may also attract pedophiles.

As for the children of the priests (which, by the way strengthens the point I just made if these children exist) It's better to look at the evidence. Now, when it comes to the evidence, the children who were conceived before a priest took his vows. Do the math. When did the priest take his vows and when was the child born and figure it out.

Needless to say the point is that if 50% of the priests have broken their celibacy vows then it undermines their ability to discipline pedophiles because they can be blackmailed. That is a point that should not be forgotten. It can be a way that causes protection of pedophiles to be in the DNA of the church.

[Aractus]

You've raised a few good points, but in all honesty I need to see evidence before I believe spurious claims.

Many priests become ordained in their 30's or even 40's - that's well enough time to have a "love child", etc. Speaking for the Anglican Church - and the rest of the Protestants - we believe the Bible which says that ministers should be men of "but one wife". It isn't literal in the sense that single men can't serve in the ministry - Paul wrote it and Paul was a single man - but it certainly doesn't forbid married men the way Catholics arbitrarily do.

[Ziploc Surprise]

You've raised a few good points, but in all honesty I need to see evidence before I believe spurious claims.

Many priests become ordained in their 30's or even 40's - that's well enough time to have a "love child", etc. Speaking for the Anglican Church - and the rest of the Protestants - we believe the Bible which says that ministers should be men of "but one wife". It isn't literal in the sense that single men can't serve in the ministry - Paul wrote it and Paul was a single man - but it certainly doesn't forbid married men the way Catholics arbitrarily do.

As I tried to say before, the love child thing should be ok with their career unless the math works against them. You can calculate about when a child was conceived.

The Anglican church does seem to have a better approach to the situation. It would be interesting to dig into their records and into how they do things and see how many abuse cases and cover ups they have and how the way they do things may effect this.

Also, as I heard (unverified) the Catholic church originally demanded celibacy from it's priests to avoid a situation where that priest may leave church property to his children. I don't know if this is true or not.