A Small Census

[CleanShavenJesus]

I see what you did there, rexbeccarox

[Angrboda]

But atheists, the most important question has gone unanswered...

Do you even lift?

Also, lel at Darkstar for never seeing porn. I just broke my no-fap streak a half hour ago. I'm disappointed in myself =[

Consider fapping a workout, attach a dumbell to your wrist

That would be somewhat redundant, don't you think?

[RonaldReagansGhost666]

1. What is your age? 14

2. Are you married?
No.
Kids?
At this age?

3. Are you angry or disappointed at "God"?
How can I have hatred of something I don't believe in?

4. Do you subscribe to hedonism?
No.

5. Are you an atheist because you want to be, without eternal consequences, sexually promiscuous? A drug addict? An alcoholic?

I'm an atheist because there's no evidence for a magical sky-fairy.

6. Do you like "psychedelic" music?

No.

7. Was atheism "transmitted" to you from a "Marxist"?

No.

8. Are you selfish?

To a degree, but the rest of humanity is, also.

9. Is your "community" centered around pornography?

No.

10. Is your atheism a political statement?

Somewhat

11. Were you recruited into atheism by the promises of sex and drugs?

Atheism isn't an organized religion, and therefore you can't be "recruited"!

[jstrodel]

You are setting up the questions to prove what you want. You are trying to make light of obvious cultural differences that exist between atheists and Christians.

Atheism is a liberal/left wing movement. The majority of people who are serious about leftist politics do not really openly identify with Marxism, although Christopher Hitchens and Stephen J Gould does. You can mock that as much as you want, but it will only trick the weak minded. Marxism is a major part of the atheist movement. On this forum you can see supporters of Chavez (who does not identify as a Marxist but is close, friends of Fidel Castro).

If you wanted to have a different question that I think would probably capture the political aspect of the atheist movement more, you could ask "How many people are to the left of Barack Obama". I bet that within the atheist movement you would find far, far more people that would answer yes to this than in the general population. It is very significant that the people that tend to disagree about the nature of morality tend to be the people that want to increase taxes the most and have the greatest degree of state power.

It is fashionable in left wing circles to distance yourself from Marx and the Soviet Union, but the question remains, "if you are to the left of Barack Obama, what is it that you want society to look like". How many people on this forum subscribe to magazines like The Nation, Mother Jones. How many people take Howard Zinn seriously (I saw a post on this on another message board). Howard Zinn is a Marxist (or something close to that), and people that read those magazines and take what they say seriously are leftists. The fact that atheists are a massive part of the left and the left is a very aggressive political movement should make any honest person think. You can close your eyes to this, but if you are a critical thinker you will see that it is true.

I understand there are plenty of atheists who are middle aged computer programmers or scientists who are not even politically leftist (maybe they are for Ron Paul) and who have never done drugs. Yes there are a lot of these people. But there are also a lot of people who are very young, who are filled with left wing propaganda, and who use drugs. A whole lot of people. If you want to see one, go to a college campus. It is absolutely filled with them. The left does use the allure of sex and drugs to advance its goals. I used to be involved in political organizing. I have seen it myself. This is a major part of the atheist movements strength, in college campus's. I understand that not everyone fits this stereotype, but it is real. You can close your eyes to it and call Christians hypocrites because they have a one sided view of things, but you can't do it with a straight face.

You attempt to caricature my accurate assessment of "the left" as "hippies who listen to psychedelic movement" is a deeply unscientific and methodological flawed approach. There is a major link between the left and atheism, whether you call this Marxism or not. Of course few people meet all these criteria perfectly.

You use the term "recruited" as if that is the way the world works. Of course people do not need to be "recruited" into atheism. It is sufficient to have the cultural associations that exist between a lifestyle that tolerates promiscuity coupled with aggressive mocking of religion. People do not need to be recruited.

Regardless of what your unscientific survey says (and says about you, if you claim to be a skeptical person about the world, I consider your skepticism to be no more serious than a rejection of religious belief), the atheist lifestyle is different from the Christian lifestyle. Consider the pornography question, regardless of how you word your atheist propaganda, they have pornography right on this forum. People do not need to be recruited to look at pornography, that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. You are trying to mock religion and advance a culture war, not understand the atheist movement.

I understand that not all atheists fit into the category of left/liberal hedonists, but many do. You will not see posts on Christian forums about whether it is safe to take ecstasy and what is the correct dose and way to do it, but you see them here.

Your survey proves that you want to disprove Christianity more than you want to do real science.


I would also point out that in understand the nature of political propaganda and the cultural impact of a certain faction asserting its will, it is not necessary to focus specifically on peoples desires or will in accepting the point of view. It does not matter if the people on the receiving end believe the same views, the goal of the propaganda may not even be to get the people to believe the same thing. Do you know what a "Communist front" is? Cultural movements are not built by people being personally committed to every detail of every idea, it is more subtle, people do not need to be recruited it is more like cultural blocs that develop and form around liberties that exist inside of certain cultures (e.g. atheism, college culture) and are manipulated intentionally.

I think if you don't care that political groups use sex and drugs and atheism to manipulate people, you are not a compassionate person. It is absolutely clear that they do. It does not matter if that is not how you think you came to atheism, that may have played a major role in the people that shared atheism with you or the people before that, or it may be impossible to know. It is not like they would necessarily share it.

Atheism is linked to a youthful rebellion and rejection of Christianity that typically happens in high school or college. It is ridiculous to try and place this on all atheists, of course there are many that do not fit into this category. Many are older. But to deny this trend and close your eyes to the fact that it goes hand in hand with lifestyle choices is to acknowledge that you are not really interested in understanding the world you are only interested in advancing a culture war based on trust in your authority figures.

[Darkstar]

There is a major link between the left and atheism, whether you call this Marxism or not.

There is a major link between the right and Christianity, whether you call it facism or not.

(I'm serious about the link to the right, though not the facism)

[jstrodel]

Darkstar, that is true, and some people on the religious right have out of control political views. They should be criticized, and are, by many Christians. I am all for opposing fascism, whether it is from Christians or not.

But I am not talking about the left as in Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, mainstream democratic politics. I am talking about the radical left. I am talking about the left like Stephen J Gould, Christopher Hitchens, Karl Marx, Howard Zinn, The Nation magazine, Noam Chomsky.

I bet around 40% of the atheists in America are political radicals. And yes, this is connected to the political movement surrounding the 1960's, where a mix of Marxism/non-Marxist socialism, sex, drugs and rock and roll basically took over a lot of higher education. You can ignore this fact if you want to, but it is a historical fact. The atheist movement got a massive boost from this.

The influence continues today in the relationship between the rave scene, the drug scene, the political left, the sixties counterculture, atheism and the computer hacking/computer pioneer movement. It is all connected, atheism is a culture that is traced back to certain people. Not all people are connected to this, but many are, such as Steve Jobs (who considered taking LSD to be a very important event in his life) and a lot of the people that built the internet. They were atheists, sure, but they were also hippies and many of them were leftists (like Richard Stallman, a major leader in the open source movement, who is a libertarian socialist and atheist).

The point I am trying to make is that there is more that goes into peoples decision to follow God than whether they see the merits of Christianity or not. Atheism is not only people united by unbelief in God, it is people united by a lot of cultural ideas, whether they are good or bad or somewhere in between.

Things didn't just pop out of nowhere. There was no all of a sudden a lot of internet hacker types (legal or illegal hacking) who started going to raves and taking ecstasy who also happened to be atheists. That came out of somewhere. A lot of them happen to be political radicals as well. Look at people like Steve Jobs. The culture came out of somewhere.

It is not a coincidence on this message board that you see topics openly devoted to doing things that are very illegal (e.g. taking ecstasy) and looking at pornography. The culture of the internet and this message board has been shaped by a wide variety cultural forces, many of them having little to do with the philosophy of religion or something like this. People do not need to be recruited into pleasing their flesh, they need only to gravitate towards those movements that offer them sensual fullfillment, and day by day, week by week their beliefs over time become more and more tracked to certain experiences and places which tolerate their bad behavior.

This is a fact, and clearly and indisputably the way that people think. And this is manipulated by many people, not last among them, Stephen J Gould, Christopher Hitchens and Karl Marx. When I was in highschool, I had a highschool teacher who seemed to have a positive view of Marxism. He taught that the Bible was wrong. I wonder why.

Also important to note is that 1/5th of the world is Communist. They do not allow Christianity the way the US allows atheism. Of course they spend massive amount of money trying to build their movement. Of course attacking religion is a major part of that. Do they have to actually advocate Marxism to advance their movement? No, of course not.

[Darkstar]

I bet around 40% of the atheists in America are political radicals.

You know, 63% of statistics are made up on the fly.

And yes, this is connected to the political movement surrounding the 1960's, where a mix of Marxism/non-Marxist socialism, sex, drugs and rock and roll basically took over a lot of higher education. You can ignore this fact if you want to, but it is a historical fact. The atheist movement got a massive boost from this.

Sounds like hippies to me (not sure about the Marxism, though). I thought they were the "Jesus is love" types. I've never heard of hippie atheists.

[Esquilax]

I think if you don't care that political groups use sex and drugs and atheism to manipulate people, you are not a compassionate person.

I told you, it's leprechaun gold that hooks the kids, not sex and drugs.

As for the rest it's... it's not really worth responding to, now is it? Mostly because you've not provided anything to show that being left wing is remotely bad, you've just assumed it because it goes against your position.

And nobody here really cares about your position, because of how much you distort the facts to suit your purposes.

---

2. Are you married? Kids?
Engaged to missluckie. And no kids, for now.

Whaaaat?! How have I missed this?

I could have sworn she mentioned that on her introductory thread. It's hardly a secret, anyway.

And thanks, to the well wishers on the previous page, too.

[jstrodel]

I bet around 40% of the atheists in America are political radicals.

You know, 63% of statistics are made up on the fly.
[/quote]

Do you know who Christopher Hitchens, Stephen J Gould, Bertrand Russell, Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, etc, etc, etc, are? Do you know what percentage of the atheists in universities are very far to the left? It is very, very high. It is one stream of thought.

Do you really think I am making up the concept of "the left"? It is not a
made up statistic.

I think there is a concept that you should look up. It is called "the war of ideas".

---

As for the rest it's... it's not really worth responding to, now is it? Mostly because you've not provided anything to show that being left wing is remotely bad, you've just assumed it because it goes against your position.

I am a former leftist. I grew up leftist. My mom believed that George Bush deserved to be executed for the Iraq War. I grew up with all that stuff. I understand there is some truth to it, but the radicalism is scary. I feel like a lot of leftists are ready to start a civil war.

This is what I believe: The idea that atheists with no way really to deal with moral skepticism are supposed to use redistribution of wealth to fight a culture war in which they take the public, which is 80% Christian and move the money into wealthy universities to indoctrinate people into atheism and teach them that the way to be a moral person is that they need to reject religion and need to put all of their faith in expanding government programs that directly benefit the atheists.

I understand there are legitimate liberal/left wing concerns. But why should leftists have all the political power? Why should they be able to take money from people and use the money to advance a secular state that 80% of America disagrees with?

Why should public money pay for atheism? The liberals in education fight so vigorously to maintain their choke hold on the minds of the American public, knowing that as long as they control peoples minds they will win elections. They use the public education system to advance atheism, to advance institutionalized censorship of any criticism of homosexuality (even though 80% of America is Christian), they use academia to teach Marxism.

I had a friend of mine growing up who is now in a PhD program. He is openly a Communist (supports Lenin) in a fairly good university. The left will censor Christians in the university who want to criticize homosexuality, but they will allow people who are openly Communist and accept the Soviet Union (not even Marxist, openly Communist).

They are fighting a culture war, they want to increase taxes, they want more power, they want control of America so they can push forward their socialistic agenda, against peoples wills. They know that religion stands in their way, and has stood in the way of left wing goals since the 19th century.

I do not think every aspect of the liberal/leftist view of life is wrong, a lot of it is found in Christianity, but a lot of it is a battle of who is in control and whether people must accept Christian teachings to be accepted in the society they live in. Liberals/leftists are trying to erase social distinctions between the righteous and the wicked and it is scary. The culture of liberalism does not distinguish between good and evil. Sometimes it does not distinguish between good and bad.

I could go on and on and on, if you want more reasons why the left is a dangerous force, not completely wrong about everything, but nonetheless, a dangerous force. I do know some Christians who are socialists, I would not say they are bad people, there have been a fair number through history. But I think if you look at the movement as a whole, it is a dangerous movement.

[rexbeccarox]

Hm. The point went humming over someone's head...