Proving God Existence

[Ryantology]

Homo sapiens first appeared c. 200,000 years ago. Islam wasn't invented until 1,400 years ago. By my math, that makes somewhere in the neighborhood of 198,600 years in which nobody could possibly have been born a Muslim.

[Sansbury]

So is the argument essentially: 'everything had a beginning and so something must've caused it that is greater than everything, therefore this must be god'?

...or am I oversimplifying?

Not very accurate

A First event must have existed
Events cannot happen by itself
A Starter for events must exist
The Starter must be self sufficient
The Starter is outside the Universe/creation
The Starter is Unique
The Starter is not similar to anything we know (or imagine)


These are the conclusions, and the premises is just the disjoint theory.

You've not won me over and I'm sure you'll tell me that I don't understand but here's why. To say that this starting event must be outside of the universe isn't axiomatic. The nature of the physics in play at that start is so mysterious that our understanding is nowhere near advanced enough to draw conclusions. Stripping it down to a simple sequence of events is far too closed minded.

Even if that is the case, the force outside of the universe could be anything. Assuming it to be a god is jaded.

[Muslim Scholar]

Homo sapiens first appeared c. 200,000 years ago. Islam wasn't invented until 1,400 years ago. By my math, that makes somewhere in the neighborhood of 198,600 years in which nobody could possibly have been born a Muslim.

ِAdam the first human was Muslim, Islam did not invent Islam he only continued the revelation that was brought by other prophets (Noah, Moses, Jesus, etc.)

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You've not won me over and I'm sure you'll tell me that I don't understand but here's why. To say that this starting event must be outside of the universe isn't axiomatic. The nature of the physics in play at that start is so mysterious that our understanding is nowhere near advanced enough to draw conclusions. Stripping it down to a simple sequence of events is far too closed minded.

The proof is dependent on logic not science

Even if that is the case, the force outside of the universe could be anything. Assuming it to be a god is jaded.

The name God is not proved, it is the characteristics of the first events/doer
You can call him anything.

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1 how can you prove what is impossible or possible for god?

God's ability is not bounded by science but a logical paradox is impossible because it is defined like that
It is like saying "Can God create nothing"
Nothing is opposite to existence so it cannot be created, it is not related to power but related to our definition of the term.

2 I already told you I had a mental image an animal wearing victorian clothes and talking to me, this never happened and is not a memory.
When I was a virgin I had several sexual mental images of me having sex, yet I still remained a virgin because these things were not memories.

Still an image from memory (its parts)

3 My proof as I have already told you that not all images are reflected light is that people can all be in the same room and see different images, hallucinations exist.

Hallucinations are memory images.

4 there is no concept about god which is generally accepted, what do you mean people who are addressed by this proof?

Who accept the premisses
"Disjoint cannot exist"

[paulpablo]

God's ability is not bounded by science but a logical paradox is impossible because it is defined like that
It is like saying "Can God create nothing"
Nothing is opposite to existence so it cannot be created, it is not related to power but related to our definition of the term.

No because I'm not saying god can create nothing or anything similar to that, I'm saying for the sake of this argument there is nothing illogical about saying god can be a creature upon this earth while being outside of the universe and its laws at the same time, since we have no definition of the term god which is agreed upon therefore no logical statements about god can be made.

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2 I already told you I had a mental image an animal wearing victorian clothes and talking to me, this never happened and is not a memory.
When I was a virgin I had several sexual mental images of me having sex, yet I still remained a virgin because these things were not memories.

Still an image from memory (its parts)

But the overall mental image is not something which I remember, it never had light reflecting off it, nor did it ever exist in the material world. This is the whole point of imagination, you are using what you know of, manipulating it within the mind so it is no longer the same and is no longer an image which existed or had light reflecting off it.

Also blind people construct mental images of shapes using touch, not all mental images are even based from light.

3 My proof as I have already told you that not all images are reflected light is that people can all be in the same room and see different images, hallucinations exist.

Hallucinations are memory images.

Are they? Where did you find this info from? Maybe all mental images and hallucinations are based on memory I don't know I'm not a psychologist but you still have to prove god cannot reflect light, while at the same time as being able to cause floods and impregnate virgins.

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"Disjoint cannot exist"

What does this mean?

[Muslim Scholar]

No because I'm not saying god can create nothing or anything similar to that, I'm saying for the sake of this argument there is nothing illogical about saying god can be a creature upon this earth while being outside of the universe and its laws at the same time, since we have no definition of the term god which is agreed upon therefore no logical statements about god can be made.

Wrong, your statement above is actually making a logical statement about God, when you said "I'm not saying god can create nothing or anything similar"
Many logical statements about God can be made
For example when you say that God can be a creature, a creature means something that did not exist then existed which contradicts with the definition of God to be eternal

But the overall mental image is not something which I remember

Doesn't matter, still it is a construction of many mental parts

Also blind people construct mental images of shapes using touch, not all mental images are even based from light.

I don't know that!
How do you know that they have a mental image?

"Disjoint cannot exist"

What does this mean?

My proof is based on one small fact, logical contradictions cannot exist
As proving a God beyond our knowledge is impossible, I though about turning around that and prove the impossibility of No God.

[paulpablo]

Wrong, your statement above is actually making a logical statement about God, when you said "I'm not saying god can create nothing or anything similar"
Many logical statements about God can be made
For example when you say that God can be a creature, a creature means something that did not exist then existed which contradicts with the definition of God to be eternal

How is me saying I didn't say something me making a statement about something, it's the opposite, it's me saying I didn't make a statement about something.

I don't know that god can't turn himself into a creature while at the same time as being outside of the universe because I don't have a definition of what god is, there is no one definition of what god is.

If we use the scientific or logical terms we are aware of now then yes we can say god cannot be in two places at the same time, but then when you use this line of logic why not question also how god can be outside of the laws of the universe and effect the laws within the universe, the floods the impregnating of virgins and so on.
And there simply is no logical definition of god.
And also why can god not be a creature and remain eternal at the same time and basically be there and here at the same time?
If god can create a soul and blow that into a human to make a human why not make a man with no soul and blow a piece of the holy spirit into the human body? I can just basically make up any old jibber jabber and say its true because there is no logical definition to god, what god is, how many gods there has to be or what he can do.

proving a God beyond our knowledge is impossible

Your statement here and the title of the thread

Proving God Existence

Seems like a contradiction to me.

Add to that the contradiction again of saying

I though about turning around that and prove the impossibility of No God.

If it is impossible that something does not exist (which you haven't proven at all by the way) then it definitely does exist. If you can prove the impossibility of there being no god then you are by default proving gods existence, which you already said was impossible.

[Sansbury]

So you accept that all you think you have proved is that the initiation of the universe was triggered by something unique, beyond our understanding and seperate to the universe.

I think religion is better off relying on the concept of faith than attempting to prove gods existence.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Homo sapiens first appeared c. 200,000 years ago. Islam wasn't invented until 1,400 years ago. By my math, that makes somewhere in the neighborhood of 198,600 years in which nobody could possibly have been born a Muslim.

ِAdam the first human was Muslim, Islam did not invent Islam he only continued the revelation that was brought by other prophets (Noah, Moses, Jesus, etc.)

I think folk just need to bare in mind that this is what we're debating against.

[Dragonetti]

ِAdam the first human was Muslim, Islam did not invent Islam he only continued the revelation that was brought by other prophets (Noah, Moses, Jesus, etc.)

This is humanity saddest statement!

Also, since God is too complex to explain, understand, and prove. Please stop trying to prove it due that statement.

[Ryantology]

ِAdam the first human was Muslim, Islam did not invent Islam he only continued the revelation that was brought by other prophets (Noah, Moses, Jesus, etc.)

Since it is beyond doubt that Adam is definitely a mythical character, as we know that humans evolved from lower primates over millions of years, then it follows that Islam is obviously a lie.