Atheism

[chatpilot]

Your Christian God is only logical to you and those that claim to believe in him.There is nothing logical about a belief in God without sufficient evidence for his existence.If anything, you contradict yourself in your previous statement by saying that he cannot be known even to believers.By doing so you are accepting and admitting that you believe in something that even to you is not known but just speculated on.Aren't you supposed to have a personal relationship with this God you claim exists?Yet your relationship with God is not personal since you claim that he cannot be known thus he is not known to you.In my opinion the words logic does not belong in the same bowl as that of faith and or belief in God.They are two wholly different ideas and concepts.

Actually we are closer to discovering big foot or giganthropicus than we are of discovering the existence of God Lol.

[fr0d0]

Yes CP I, and all Christians believe in a God that we cannot know the existence of. This I take as absolute fact. I am absolutely certain. I don't think I contradict myself at all. This is the nature of belief, and to speak of empirical proofs or transferrable reasoning flies in the face of exactly what belief means. This personal relationship stipulates an unknown partner. Faith is essential. Faith cannot logically be in the known.

I agree re bigfoot.

[Sam]

So you agree with me? This isn't clear.

I agree to an extent, though my full feeling is thet if religion wants to claim to be outside the scope of science then it should be complete, therefore religion should never reference (positively or negatively) science.

Stem cell research is a moral question, which is in the religious realm. Homosexuality possibly. Evolution not. So your premise is askew.

Then you are combining stances of certain bodies within the church - the Catholic Church is very large but en masse unrepresentative and controlled by a relatively small minority making proclamations for very many - with orthodox Christian belief. Orthodox belief doesn't change, and it's stance is consistent.

I can quote very many non Christian acts committed by people identifying themselves as Christian. I identify my self as Christian yet most of the time I'm not acting in accordance with my belief. The aim is still perfect, if the execution is misguided.

I accept that Stem Cell research may raise moral questions for some and therefore the religious are entitles to voice their opinions which is only right and fair.

My main argument here is that the curch and large numbers of religious people (not neccesarily yourself) do claim the right to reference science whenever it suits them and have restrained it at time. While I appreciate they may not represent your views Fr0d0 I see them as the main re-presentative body and therefore their actions must be considered within any discussion on the subject.

You have a short memory. You appear from no-where and appear to single me out. I'm flattered whilst at the same time bored.

I apologise for my unwillingness to confront. My rationality tells me this is fruitless. If you appeared genuine to me then I would be more than happy to oblige. You have yet to convince me.

I'm sorry I just don't recall our previous discussion, I accept that I have been away for some time Fr0d0 but unfortunately I hve a number of commitments outside of visiting the forum. I didn't know I'd be penalised in discussions for it.

To clarify; I'm not singling you out, this thread was interesting to me when I logged in so I decided to comment ... you engaged me on each occasion so I assumed you where happy with it.

I'm sorry if you don't feel I'm not genuine in my aims ... may I ask what gives you that impression?

Again, I stress that I'm not trying to comfront you Fr0d0, I have an aggresive debating style ... please don't let it make you uneasy when all I'm trying to do is discuss religion with you.

Outside the natural universe would not be God. How am I dismissing the idea with these rational rebuts??

I said that proving the existence of a super-natural realm would generate the plausibility your God would require to be justifiable, not that anything 'outside the natural universe' is by default God.

I felt you where dismissive in that; without any justification you said 'There would never enter into the contemplation of God/the supernatural even though I had made my reasoning clear.

Sam

[theblindferrengi]

Actually we are closer to discovering big foot or giganthropicus than we are of discovering the existence of God Lol.

A live one yes, but remains of gigantopithicus have been found

[fr0d0]

So you agree with me? This isn't clear.

I agree to an extent, though my full feeling is that if religion wants to claim to be outside the scope of science then it should be complete, therefore religion should never reference (positively or negatively) science.

I agree with that too.

I accept that Stem Cell research may raise moral questions for some and therefore the religious are entitles to voice their opinions which is only right and fair.

My main argument here is that the church and large numbers of religious people (not necessarily yourself) do claim the right to reference science whenever it suits them and have restrained it at time. While I appreciate they may not represent your views Fr0d0 I see them as the main representative body and therefore their actions must be considered within any discussion on the subject.

True. I hold that they are in error and their reasoning inconsistent.

I'm sorry if you don't feel I'm not genuine in my aims ... may I ask what gives you that impression?

I guess I'm a little paranoid over the similar circumstances. If I am wrong I apologise. Both times you've seemed genuine.

I said that proving the existence of a super-natural realm would generate the plausibility your God would require to be justifiable, not that anything 'outside the natural universe' is by default God.

I felt you were dismissive in that; without any justification you said 'There would never enter into the contemplation of God/the supernatural even though I had made my reasoning clear.

OK sorry that I misunderstood. I can't see how it would be possible, even theoretically, to prove the existence of a supernatural realm. That would be like saying we proved the existence of something that couldn't exist.. a contradiction. Not something can never be something. God simply isn't a 'thing'. Shame you didn't discuss this with Jon Paul or Arcanus.. both would give you answers far more satisfying than I am able I think. With me it's like pulling teeth - with them there's clear logic

[Sam]

OK sorry that I misunderstood. I can't see how it would be possible, even theoretically, to prove the existence of a supernatural realm. That would be like saying we proved the existence of something that couldn't exist.. a contradiction. Not something can never be something. God simply isn't a 'thing'. Shame you didn't discuss this with Jon Paul or Arcanus.. both would give you answers far more satisfying than I am able I think. With me it's like pulling teeth - with them there's clear logic

I think we have reached the end of this discussion, anything further would just be filling this thread with repeated arguments and pointless repetition.

I'll leave it that we can just agree to disagree on this issue.

Good talk though!

Sam

[Violet]

OK sorry that I misunderstood. I can't see how it would be possible, even theoretically, to prove the existence of a supernatural realm. That would be like saying we proved the existence of something that couldn't exist.. a contradiction. Not something can never be something. God simply isn't a 'thing'. Shame you didn't discuss this with Jon Paul or Arcanus.. both would give you answers far more satisfying than I am able I think. With me it's like pulling teeth - with them there's clear logic

I think we have reached the end of this discussion, anything further would just be filling this thread with repeated arguments and pointless repetition.

I'll leave it that we can just agree to disagree on this issue.

Good talk though!

Sam

This shows great wisdom +1 to you for that

[theVOID]

Oh please fr0d0... all Jon Paul and Arcanus did was SPIN!!!

[Kyuuketsuki]

Oh please fr0d0... all Jon Paul and Arcanus did was SPIN!!!

QFT

Kyu

[fr0d0]

I'll leave it that we can just agree to disagree on this issue.

Good talk though!

Sam

Until next time my friend