The price of attonement???

[Drich]

What was the true price of attonement?

As some of our atheist brothers will point out (as does the bible) Jesus was killed and on day three He was resurrected, So what is the big Deal?

My question is if this is indeed the extent of the cost of our attonement, what is the big deal? Or is there more to the story? Does did our attonement cost Christ More than just his physical life only to be resurected on Day three?

In Passages like John 1:1 we know Christ to be God. It is explained that through Christ sacerfice we will have our sins forgiven in passages like john 3:16. Then the death bural and resurection happens, which in of itself does not align with what Jhn 3:16 says. "God so loved the world that He gave his only Son.." If His Son is resurrected then how did God give Him?

I thought about it for a while, Then the meaning of the passages like the ones found in luke 22 and Mark 16, acts 2 dawn on me. (32 So Jesus is the one God raised from death. We are all witnesses of this. We saw him. 33 Jesus was lifted up to heaven. Now he is with God, at God’s right side. The Father has given the Holy Spirit to him, as he promised. So Jesus has now poured out that Spirit. This is what you see and hear. 34 David was not the one who was lifted up to heaven. David himself said,


‘The Lord God said to my Lord:
Sit at my right side,
35 until I put your enemies under your power.[e]’ )

Now take that and align it with what Joh 1:1 says:

"In the beginning the Word Was with God and the word was God..."

Now (post resurection) the 'word' sits at the right Hand of God. (Granted the Right hand of God is the seat of power and of authority) But before all of this Jesus was God.(He occupied the center seat, not the one to the right) Now (post resurection) there is a clear seperation between God and Resurected Jesus...

Is this the cost of our salvation? Was Christ 'demoted' to Hand of God (Game of Thrones style) rather than being God Himself after the resurection?

I'm not here to argue this point, as I said I was answering questions and found myself asking along side an atheist brother What was the big deal, and this is the answer I was given over to..(Which is indeed a pretty big deal, God so loved us that He Gave His only Son and that Son literally Gave his deity for us..) I wanted to see what the shark tank thought of it. (Again I'm just asking a question)

[Foxaèr]

What was the true price of attonement?

This is something I have found of great interest in regards to your question:

The doctrine of atonement begins with the idea of sin and ‘sin’ – a purely religious term bearing little relationship to moral values or social responsibility – is tied to the folk myth of Adam and Eve and the ‘fall of man’. Augustine (354-430) taught that after ‘the fall’ man was totally depraved and only through the Church could humans acquire a measure of merit. By devotion, observance of duty and penance it was considered possible to acquire a super abundance of merit and it was this concept which led to much abuse and ultimately sparked the Reformation.

The idea of transmitted merit was tied to the concept of transmitted guilt but both sides are equally unethical. However, the proposition was further enlarged to impute that through the death of Jesus humans were not only considered to be righteous but were actually righteous. It is being realised today that such conceptions are ethically unjustifiable and psychologically impossible. The goodness of human beings may influence and benefit others and their example may stimulate the moral perception of those whom they contact but this does not constitute transference of merit.

A major obstacle for theologians is the fact that, though they accept the impossibility of the transfer of guilt from the transgressor to the innocent, they still are obliged to maintain that Jesus endured the full penalty of the individual and collective sin of humankind even though a major element of that penalty is considered to be the consciousness of guilt. The guiltless cannot be conscious of guilt and Jesus is always projected as perfect. It is axiomatic that a perfect being cannot be conscious of imperfection.

What is the condition that makes the atoning death necessary? Theologically humankind is regarded as having rebelled against the authority of Yahweh and therefore come under ‘the wrath of God’ who is morally bound to inflict punishment.

Why must an omnipotent being be offended by another person exercising their free will? Why must the punishment be death? Why must the penalty be handed down generation after generation? If someone creates something, by what strange reason does he then have the audacity to be angry and condemn the imperfections of his own creation? Is not anger a sign of imperfection in the creator?

How is it possible for a human to commit an offence against a spirit? Surely the idea is ridiculous.

What sort of a deity could gain satisfaction from the death of Jesus? The answer is surely that it is the type of god depicted in the Old Testament, a deity worthy of contempt and rejection by moral humankind.

There are people who argue that suffering has a moral value and carries within it the potential for good but it is difficult to see how physical or mental suffering and death can, of itself, bring benefit, yet this is an aspect of atonement which is strongly propagated by Christians. Pain as such has no power of atonement – it cannot obliterate guilt. To demand that someone has to suffer to expiate a transgression is not our concept of justice or ethics.

If the Atonement doctrine had any validity surely the feast of the Atonement in October would have been much more appropriate for the death of Jesus than the feast of the Passover in April!

I shared the tidbits I thought were particularly important. If you want to read more, follow the link:

http://atheistfoundation.org.au/article/...atonement/

[Drich]

Just because I asked a Question does not mean I do not know what to believe nor am I looking for another faith. The oppsite is true. The reason I can answer questions is because I first asked them myself. Even though I am asking a question I do provide an answer as well. though I am not ready to teach on the subject I do think I have a solid foundation to start. That is why I posted it here. (To let you all throw stones at it and see if it will hold up to your best efforts.)

That said I do understand the basic fundamentals of atheism, and have found them to be a little self serving for my taste (no offense intended.) May i also respectfully say I do not need any more material to view on that subject.

[Baalzebutt]

That said I do understand the basic fundamentals of atheism, and have found them to be a little self serving for my taste (no offense intended.) May i also respectfully say I do not need any more material to view on that subject.

Of course you don't need more material to read. It might actually give you some information you haven't thought of yet and change your opinion.

Why don't you try being honest for once. Just say that this is your opinion on the matter and nothing we say could possibly change that opinion. I suspect you didn't even read what was posted above. If you had, you would have to acknowledge the questions it raises and you can't answer those kinds of questions.

Just go bury your head back in the sand and be all warm and comfy with your delusions.

[Drich]

That said I do understand the basic fundamentals of atheism, and have found them to be a little self serving for my taste (no offense intended.) May i also respectfully say I do not need any more material to view on that subject.

Of course you don't need more material to read. It might actually give you some information you haven't thought of yet and change your opinion.

Why don't you try being honest for once. Just say that this is your opinion on the matter and nothing we say could possibly change that opinion. I suspect you didn't even read what was posted above. If you had, you would have to acknowledge the questions it raises and you can't answer those kinds of questions.

Just go bury your head back in the sand and be all warm and comfy with your delusions.

I have answered these types of questions so many times it getting boring. The reason I did not answer them again because the the poster did not ask them himself. I found when someone lets a web site do their thinking for them, then they can not respond when the conversation goes any deeper than what has been written.

If you want me to answer any of the questions above then just start a new thread, and I will be glad to post a link to a thread where all of these questions have already been played out 100 times over. If by chance you ask something new then I will happily answer anything asked line by line and point by point. to the point that you will put me on ignore or will simply refuse to respond.

[Tonus]

Jehovah's Witnesses hold that Jesus is a separate person from Jehovah God. As far as the price of atonement, I cannot recall that they ever considered the question. He gave up life as a perfect flesh-and-blood human, which is what Adam "sacrificed" when he sinned. It's one of those things that I didn't think about until much later, the notion of what was really lost. Jesus did two things-- dirtied his hands by becoming a human, and gave up a human body. Given his long life to that point (presumably thousands, if not billions of years already) and that he had eternity ahead of him, neither seems like much of a price to pay. If his status in heaven is somehow lowered by the act, it might almost be considered a sacrifice, but what does that lower status amount to?

Jesus as god (highest on the ladder) or as god's son (second on the ladder) is about as high as status gets. Did someone else supersede him? Does Gabriel get the pick of biscuits from the breakfast tray before Jesus now? Does Jesus only get the second best harp to play? Is it that he has to stand there, red-faced, and pretend that he doesn't hear the angels giggling when he walks past? I don't know of any tangible loss that isn't based on something (status) that we're told doesn't really matter as Christians. The lowest among you shall be the most exalted, after all. By humbling himself, Jesus could only gain status. I don't see that he really sacrificed anything of value.

[Drich]

Jehovah's Witnesses hold that Jesus is a separate person from Jehovah God. As far as the price of atonement, I cannot recall that they ever considered the question. He gave up life as a perfect flesh-and-blood human, which is what Adam "sacrificed" when he sinned. It's one of those things that I didn't think about until much later, the notion of what was really lost. Jesus did two things-- dirtied his hands by becoming a human, and gave up a human body. Given his long life to that point (presumably thousands, if not billions of years already) and that he had eternity ahead of him, neither seems like much of a price to pay. If his status in heaven is somehow lowered by the act, it might almost be considered a sacrifice, but what does that lower status amount to?

Jesus as god (highest on the ladder) or as god's son (second on the ladder) is about as high as status gets. Did someone else supersede him? Does Gabriel get the pick of biscuits from the breakfast tray before Jesus now? Does Jesus only get the second best harp to play? Is it that he has to stand there, red-faced, and pretend that he doesn't hear the angels giggling when he walks past? I don't know of any tangible loss that isn't based on something (status) that we're told doesn't really matter as Christians. The lowest among you shall be the most exalted, after all. By humbling himself, Jesus could only gain status. I don't see that he really sacrificed anything of value.

From what I have read, Christ's jobs include: Final Judge, General of the Angel armies (As He leads them to usher in the final battle) He also described as ruling "New Earth." Meaning He is Physically Here with those of us who make it to Heaven/New Earth. (Not with the other members of the God Head in Heaven.)

What did He loose? Before He was God, now He is a servant of God. The difference is the one between being the store Manager and owning said store. Or a 5 star General vs President.. Jesus is said to preside over this world, God is still Master and Maker of the rest of Creation. That's a pretty big demotion if you think about it. Going from Ruler/Creator of everything, to managing the 1/2 monkeies who cost you your job.

[FallentoReason]

That said I do understand the basic fundamentals of atheism, and have found them to be a little self serving for my taste

Book, chapter, verse, or it didn't happen.

[Sagasa]

My head is starting to hurt here. God sacrificed His own status to redeem us, and was demoted to being just the right hand of God. Now He is no longer the president of the universe, but instead is like the 5-star general who is subservient to His own will.

.....I just probably lack the faith to understand this.

[The Grand Nudger]

Tell your god to get a refund on my count. The product was defective, and I didn't order it in the first place.