Childhood indoctrination

[littleendian]

I'm sorry, I don't have time to read the next 6 pages (I'm on page 29) - but does anyone point out that lil and forb make the case that nutrients CAN be gotten from the soil, but not that such a way of farming can actually sustainably feed all the people in the world?

Why do vegans never address this?

That's the point I personally find the most convincing case against veganism presented here so far. There's a book discussing this (I think mentioned by Kichi) which is on my to-read list.

I cannot prove that a world population of 7 billion vegans could actually be supported by the planet. Not all that grows on the planet can be digested by humans and requires ruminant animals to be made available to human digestion. Will enough grow to feed everyone without animal agriculture? I don't think anybody knows. However there is reason to believe that at least where I live there is an abundance of fertile land that could certainly be used to feed the local population comfortably. There is no reason to assume that the vast lands dedicated to soy and corn production couldn't be converted to grow crops digestible by humans. Prices would go up, at least at first, and it would require fundamental changes in our food production methods, no doubt. I don't propose veganism would work if everyone started the same day, it's a gradual process.

Why does that uncertainty not convince me that I can finally have that juicy steak again? Because in the face of gruelling complexities that I have no hope of completely understanding, I choose to take the naive point of view, as close as I can get to that of a child: What are the direct consequences of my actions that I can see, here and now, if I look? Basically: Someone gets killed, and if I didn't raise the animal myself I can never rule out that the animal didn't suffer in life and slaughter. I'm afraid of death and suffering, so I won't deal it out on others without a much better reason than my appetite for meat or because there is a remaining uncertainty about whether my lifestyle lives up to Kant's categorical imperative.

Additionally, I see veganism as a tiny, personal form of activism and protest against the terrible crime of todays CAFOs and mega-slaughterhouses and against the view of animals as a product. Even though I sometimes failed to prove this in the present discussion, for which I'm ashamed, I see it as my contribution to a more compassate world. Only restricting myself to "clean" meat isn't a strong enough statement to me. Basically I think Kichi has a point when she draws parallels to religion, it gives me a purpose in life. However I arrived at this myself, through my own two eyes and my own heart, so I refuse that veganism is a replacement-dogma to me.

[thesummerqueen]

Look, I have nothing against most vegans, like I said. That is your personal choice. I DO have a problem with vegans who think we need to end all animal killing without having actual scientific data on their side. And I especially have a problem with those who think people should do it regardless of their monetary, health or political situation.

While I enjoy visions of the future with vertical garden centers feeding the local populace with unseasonal or non-local foods, and local and seasonal foods being grown...well, locally... and everyone having enough to eat, the fact is that we live in a world which is still very much driven by scientific illiteracy and greed. Much of the world depends on heavily ag'd crops and animals, either as food or to sell for money to buy food. Unless you have a very specific system ready to go in which you IMMEDIATELY replace all current sources of money and food with something better, and have the FULL AND UTTER cooperation of all leaders involved, you will have to settle for very gradual - VERY GRADUAL - change...if it happens at all.

No African warlords give a fuck about veganism for their people. No Amazonian clear-cutters care about soybeans over cattle. No hungry squatters in North Carolina mountains give a shit about making falafel instead of buying the pork or shooting the animals that might feed them in the winter. No one cares where their food comes from or how it was prepared when they are hungry.

Now, could the entire population be vegan at some point? Not on our current farming practices. I'm sure Rhythm and I could bat around some ideas that would require a mix of tech, gmo's and architecture, but those would never happen in our lifetimes.

I'm not saying this is a reason for you to eat meat. Don't eat it if you don't want to. But don't call it "indoctrination" either.

[Rahul]

Oh fuck, that reminds me. I've got to get a copy of the order form from the meat processing place before my dad takes the heifer in.

Shit, thanks guys. The wife would have killed me if she didn't get the cuts she wanted.

[The Grand Nudger]

I cannot prove that a world population of 7 billion vegans could actually be supported by the planet. Not all that grows on the planet can be digested by humans and requires ruminant animals to be made available to human digestion. Will enough grow to feed everyone without animal agriculture? I don't think anybody knows.

Pretty easy stuff to figure out, yes. Petrochem (and a host of other sources) is a vastly more useful source of fertility than manure -that's why we use it-. It comes with it's own problems, obviously.

However there is reason to believe that at least where I live there is an abundance of fertile land that could certainly be used to feed the local population comfortably.

Ah, the inequitable distribution of natural resources, wonderful isn't it?

There is no reason to assume that the vast lands dedicated to soy and corn production couldn't be converted to grow crops digestible by humans. Prices would go up, at least at first, and it would require fundamental changes in our food production methods, no doubt. I don't propose veganism would work if everyone started the same day, it's a gradual process.

Prices would go up, and "less than sustainable resource" consumption rates would also skyrocket...not to mention water....this has already been addressed, long ago.

Why does that uncertainty not convince me that I can finally have that juicy steak again? Because in the face of gruelling complexities that I have no hope of completely understanding, I choose to take the naive point of view, as close as I can get to that of a child: What are the direct consequences of my actions that I can see, here and now, if I look?

I suppose there's really no gentle way to put this...so..here goes.

If maintaining this position requires that you willfully ignore the inclusion of all of the negatively valued things that led you to holding position as being part and parcel -of this position-....just what are we even talking about? What you would seem to be asking for here (more accurately) is not that we don't off our fellow creatures...but that you be personally shielded from knowledge of it -or- be excused as as a beneficiary of it.

Now, clearly, you aren't in control of ag. I'm not giving you any shit for opting out of those things you cannot stomach -insomuch as you can (which is apparently far less than you think)-........I'm just stressing that a realistic appraisal of ones position doesn't leave much room for looking down the nose at the other guy in this particular arena.

Perhaps I haven't said enough to make this clear, the notion that it would be unworkable -from a technical point of view- is not at issue, we can do this. However, in order to do this, we would require an increase in related industries that offer no controls, no rights, no nothing - either to humans or to animals- in order to accomplish it. Industries, mind you, which already have track records that read like a demon's resume. What we'd be choosing, in effect, is what point we would like to shuffle all of this misery away at (and the exact status of said misery). Now, personally, I'd rather coddle some livestock for a few years then hit them with the captive bolt - as opposed to cutting a deal with the next warlord or multinational that finds a source of crude in a malleable location. You?

-That-.....or some as yet undisclosed breaththrough discovery (which to my mind, would be preferable to both..as difficult as it is to imagine what that sort of thing may be).

[littleendian]

Much of the world depends on heavily ag'd crops and animals, either as food or to sell for money to buy food.

Is there a better way but to remove my personal demand for these products by buying local, organic veggies? You can only change your own behaviour and then hope that others see it as a good thing and change theirs too.

Unless you have a very specific system ready to go in which you IMMEDIATELY replace all current sources of money and food with something better, and have the FULL AND UTTER cooperation of all leaders involved, you will have to settle for very gradual - VERY GRADUAL - change...if it happens at all.

I completely agree, except for the defeatist sentiment. I would also argue that most positive changes in history, except for a few like the French Revolution, were gradual processes, not immediate, but driven by very many individuals in their own very limited range of influence. I'm quite optimistic that I will still be around to see the entire veganism thing taking off full-scale, but of course nobody knows.

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However there is reason to believe that at least where I live there is an abundance of fertile land that could certainly be used to feed the local population comfortably.

Ah, the inequitable distribution of natural resources, wonderful isn't it?

I can only change myself and therefore must operate within my immediate environment. Once the problem is solved for central Europe, we can then start asking questions about how we could assist others who might not live on such fertile ground.

Perhaps I haven't said enough to make this clear, the notion that it would be unworkable -from a technical point of view- is not at issue, we can do this. However, in order to do this, we would require an increase in related industries that offer no controls, no rights, no nothing - either to humans or to animals- in order to accomplish it. Industries, mind you, which already have track records that read like a demon's resume. What we'd be choosing, in effect, is what point we would like to shuffle all of this misery away at (and the exact status of said misery). Now, personally, I'd rather coddle some livestock for a few years then hit them with the captive bolt - as opposed to cutting a deal with the next warlord or multinational that finds a source of crude in a malleable location. You?

I don't understand why you keep pondering the petrochem thing, I am not advertising conventional ag and I haven't bought conventionally grown crops for years, what I eat is all organic and more and more local. Here in Germany any social-welfare receiver can afford to live off organic if (s)he chooses to go the extra mile and maybe buy from a farmers market or similar. It's really not that much more expensive, it's simply a question of priorities. Veganism doesn't in-and-off-itself increase anyones dependence on petrochem.

I'll limit my discussion to Europe, since that's where in my view veganism does make sense today, I'm not talking about Africa or Australia where things might look very different, as was described by Kichi etc.

While organic might be a less efficient way when it comes to yield, that would hardly be a significant problem, seeing how much food we waste here because of over-production or to keep prices stable. Also how much we eat is not only governed by its caloric content but also by nutrients found in the food (or not), and here organic produce just simply delivers more bang per pound. So basically I don't buy the notion that we can't feed everyone with organic, local produce. It might be a utopian view, but it's good to aim at the impossible to achieve the best results.

[KichigaiNeko]

While organic might be a less efficient way when it comes to yield, that would hardly be a significant problem, seeing how much food we waste here because of over-production or to keep prices stable.

Yes, organic is so much more preferable to petrochemical and current Big-ag practices. This is your first stumbling block. Wonderful that you buy local from organic practitioners of the farmers craft. Unfortunately the excess is not transportable, storable and as such has no $ value otherwise big-ag would have used it before now. Your prices are higher than the conventional petrochemical and $USD9.00 a kilo for spuds is very excessive.

You are in Germany? Do you understand the soil under your feet? The animals and humans that have died over the centuries to produce the soil that you currently have? What chemicals do your market gardeners use? They will at least have to use Bacillus thuringiensis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_thuringiensis as a pesticide. The fact that the majority of your organic crops are also genetically modified to suit Germany's climate is another issue.

Not so long ago the Black Forest was dying...not much has changed.

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Your utopian view whilst admirable is just plain naive, childish and in the realms of fantasy. There is no way you can feed your own let alone the planet from strictly organic practices.... the numbers are too high. Even for little old Germany. The problem is transport and storage even for little old Germany alone. But what about the other countries? This is also a stumbling block you seem to blithely ignore. You have green houses? Really? How organic is that?

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You have heard of the Irish potato famine?

[KichigaiNeko]

Interesting vid
http://youtu.be/IWvHDxs7Ppk

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http://youtu.be/jLp81mcn_wA

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Here ya go endie...here is your "organic" garden produce....from a green house. Which is suspect is the only way you can get your veggies in the middle of the German winter

http://youtu.be/E6WfWPOvVwQ

[littleendian]

You are in Germany? Do you understand the soil under your feet? The animals and humans that have died over the centuries to produce the soil that you currently have? What chemicals do your market gardeners use? They will at least have to use Bacillus thuringiensis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_thuringiensis as a pesticide.

Okay, you got me here, I can't tell you what they use, only that it's not made from fossil oil or similar, limited ressources. I'm not claiming we can eliminate our footprint on the plant, only that we can tread a little lighter.

The fact that the majority of your organic crops are also genetically modified to suit Germany's climate is another issue.

Why is that an issue? While I'm not a fan of doing whatever just because science allows us to do it, I'm not denouncing the use of technology to optimize food production.

Your utopian view whilst admirable is just plain naive, childish and in the realms of fantasy. There is no way you can feed your own let alone the planet from strictly organic practices.... the numbers are too high.

You will have to provide some facts, actual numbers rather than guesswork, to back that claim up, until then the question remains open. However I think that assuming that yes, we can feed everyone on organic and relatively local crops, is the better assumption for now, simply because environmentally everything else is just not sustainable (barring some miracle technologies which don't seem to be around the corner today).

Even for little old Germany. The problem is transport and storage even for little old Germany alone. But what about the other countries? This is also a stumbling block you seem to blithely ignore. You have green houses? Really? How organic is that?

I don't want to ignore the issue that other countries might have different issues, that's why I stated above that I'll confine my argument to central Europe for now, which is where I live and where these problems exist and where I believe a real solution is feasible if people chose to spend a little less on flat screen tellies and more on proper food.

You have heard of the Irish potato famine?

Yes, I assume your point is food security, and it's a valid concern, but there are similar problems with animal agriculture as well, there are diseases (mad cows disease being one of them) which could theoretically affect food security there as well, so in the present argument that is a zero-sum game.

[KichigaiNeko]

KichigaiNeko Wrote:
You are in Germany? Do you understand the soil under your feet? The animals and humans that have died over the centuries to produce the soil that you currently have? What chemicals do your market gardeners use? They will at least have to use Bacillus thuringiensis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_thuringiensis as a pesticide.

Okay, you got me here, I can't tell you what they use, only that it's not made from fossil oil or similar, limited resources. I'm not claiming we can eliminate our footprint on the plant, only that we can tread a little lighter.

The issue here is that some GMO/ Monsanto crops are using Bt spliced into a plants genome so that in effect it is listed as a pesticide by the US-FDA. The use of pertro-chemicals is what is in your "synthetics" (parkas, warm clothing undergarments, shirts, underwear, tops etc) so the bleating of "Oh we have synthetics so we don't need animals" is rather disingenuous whilst you bleat about "treading a little lighter on the planet. Your whole ethos is to keep fossil fuels going and thriving to the detriment of the very ethos you are supposedly striving to support very incongruous of you.

Bacillus thuringiensis is quite harmless when used as a topical pesticide and requires a set period of time (say 3 weeks) to degenerate in the environment. Which is why it is used by organic farmers. So far so hoopy. The issue is that with 9 billion people on the planet to feed companies liken to Monsanto are producing patented crops that are listed as pesticides so it sort of makes the whole "vegan/ organic" presumption rather stupid as your crops are rather deadly since the Bacillus thuringiensis is actually IN the plant and is not very friendly to humans in this format. In other words...go vegan and die because you food is full of bacterial toxins rather than petro-chemical ones.

The other issue is that we are currently utilising ALL available arable land for crops. This land is in dwindling supply as the population is increasing to the point where there will not BE arable land to grow food crops. Ergo...going "vegan" will certainly be the death knell of such a life style

Please refer to the videos I posted.

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The fact that the majority of your organic crops are also genetically modified to suit Germany's climate is another issue.

Why is that an issue? While I'm not a fan of doing whatever just because science allows us to do it, I'm not denouncing the use of technology to optimize food production.

By NOT denouncing "technology to optimize food production" flies in the face of your "totally organic ethos" and makes you look rather stupid and ill informed as to just where and how your "organic produce" is grown and harvested.

Perhaps I am correct in assuming that you have no idea how your food is produced, from what stock species, in what media, utilising what fertilisers and wheter or not it is grown in soil or hydroponically? Further that you have never actually grown your own food?

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Your utopian view whilst admirable is just plain naive, childish and in the realms of fantasy. There is no way you can feed your own let alone the planet from strictly organic practices.... the numbers are too high.

You will have to provide some facts, actual numbers rather than guesswork, to back that claim up, until then the question remains open. However I think that assuming that yes, we can feed everyone on organic and relatively local crops, is the better assumption for now, simply because environmentally everything else is just not sustainable (barring some miracle technologies which don't seem to be around the corner today).

You never watched the vids I posted then? Because they DO give some rather interesting numbers as to the inability to feed the planet just on veggies alone. Please do me the courtesy of watching them...I don't post shit just for the heck of it

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[qutoe=Kichi]Even for little old Germany. The problem is transport and storage even for little old Germany alone. But what about the other countries? This is also a stumbling block you seem to blithely ignore. You have green houses? Really? How organic is that?[/quote]

I don't want to ignore the issue that other countries might have different issues, that's why I stated above that I'll confine my argument to central Europe for now, which is where I live and where these problems exist and where I believe a real solution is feasible if people chose to spend a little less on flat screen tellies and more on proper food.

And again you ignore my post! I AM addressing YOUR country! Your assumption of "focusing less on flat screen tellies and more on food" is just so infantile and solidifies your place as just a latte sipping twerp, a bounder, a hanger on with no thought of your own.

My point is that in Germany (as far as I am able to Google) "Green-House farming" is the norm (for both meat and vegetables) due to climate and the lack of arable land to feed 82+ million. You don't seem to have done any research into this whole "Food Crisis" issue and as such your bleating comes across even MORE disingenuous

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You have heard of the Irish potato famine?

Yes, I assume your point is food security, and it's a valid concern, but there are similar problems with animal agriculture as well, there are diseases (mad cows disease being one of them) which could theoretically affect food security there as well, so in the present argument that is a zero-sum game.

Perhaps it is a "zero-sum game" but again I accuse you of not doing any research or even doing me the courtesy of viewing the vids I posted.

There is much that can be done and IS being done but you seem to want to join the "Band wagon" of bleating sheep sans any input from yourself. Have you grown your own food? Would you consider installing an Aquaponics system (given that you have the space for one) Is the best you can do is to purchase "organic vegetables" from a local grower and then shove the whole food crisis issue down the throats of those of us who are unable to go the "veggie" route?

Is THIS all you are good for?

[KichigaiNeko]

I am thinking that we have established that the OP is incorrect in his/her assumption that "childhood-indoctrination" is stopping people from embracing a vegan/vegetarian diet and that people who seem to require meat protein and the animal fats utilise to absorb vital vitamins and minerals are just as worthy of note.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin

I think I would rather get my vitamins and minerals from my food than the pseudo-supplements put forth by the various pharmacological companies thank you... a much more "organic" way to get the nutrients I require for my body IHMO