Childhood indoctrination

[Gilgamesh]

I can't justify exploiting them for entertainment (like zoo's.) If letting living things live happy is preferable, and we can entertain ourselves without locking animals up, then there's no reason to exploit them that way. I also can't justify killing them for clothing. If preserving life is preferable, and we can create clothes from things not alive, then there's no reason to kill them for clothes.

But people like eating them, myself included, so killing them for food is justified. We can nourish ourselves with plants and not animals, but I'd rather not, because my desire to eat meat is stronger than my desire to have animals live.

Morality is subjective. Any given moral of any given person is derived from what that person thinks is ideal/important, and everyone has a different idea of what is ideal/important.

[littleendian]

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Nur mal so aus privatem Interesse. Was waren deine Beweggründe, die dich zum Veganismus führten?

In meinem Fall war es eine Frau.

The question is about my personal motivation for veganism. As I've said here before, one of the few things I love more in my "mental realm" than reason is compassion, it sounds like terrible hippy bullshit but it's true, I want to fill my heart with compassion. I feel terrible when I see the images of what people do to animals, and as a mildly Buddhist guy I feel these terrible things will eventually come back to me (Karma) if I support them. I grew up with animals around and I've always perceived them as individuals with their very own interests and likes and dislikes, it just pains me to see them suffer. These cows have as much character and friendship and pain and joy in their dumb little lives as our pets do, and we let hate and terror rain down on them. It's not worthy for the human race, we are better than this.

As my favourite western philosopher said:
"We don't only owe the animals compassion, we also owe them justice."

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Morality is subjective. Any given moral of any given person is derived from what that person thinks is ideal/important, and everyone has a different idea of what is ideal/important.

Yes, intuitively morals are what we feel is right. However in history people have often felt something is right that is in reality terribly unjust (slavery, fascism, genocide) and they would've realized this if they had thought things through rather than just follow others. This is the highest ideal of post-religious society, namely to use ones own reason and not rely on others for thinking. But we don't, we just accept what everyone else accepts, and we commit atrocities in many cases for no better justification than our enjoyment of meat or fur.

Death is such a cruel punishment that in Europe it is not even dealt out to the greatest child molester or murderer, but still we deal it out in the billions every year for no good reason at all.

[KichigaiNeko]

So this is about " dominion" OVER the earth?

[Something completely different]

The question is about my personal motivation for veganism. As I've said here before, one of the few things I love more in my "mental realm" than reason is compassion, it sounds like terrible hippy bullshit but it's true, I want to fill my heart with compassion. I feel terrible when I see the images of what people do to animals, and as a mildly Buddhist guy I feel these terrible things will eventually come back to me (Karma) if I support them. I grew up with animals around and I've always perceived them as individuals with their very own interests and likes and dislikes, it just pains me to see them suffer. These cows have as much character and friendship and pain and joy in their dumb little lives as our pets do, and we let hate and terror rain down on them. It's not worthy for the human race, we are better than this.

So in short:out of personal expiriences.

One contributer in my case were the behavioral studies by Konrad Lorenz. I constantly tried to justify my vegetarianism and later veganism on scientific grounds. But constantly failed.

As my favourite western philosopher said:
"We don't only owe the animals compassion, we also owe them justice."

I usualy give a really harsh response after something like this. But anyway, I think that quotes cannot be sufficiant enought to be used as an argument, since when used in that context they are nothing else but a cheap appeal to authority.

[Gilgamesh]

Yes, intuitively morals are what we feel is right. However in history people have often felt something is right that is in reality terribly unjust (slavery, fascism, genocide) and they would've realized this if they had thought things through rather than just follow others. This is the highest ideal of post-religious society, namely to use ones own reason and not rely on others for thinking. But we don't, we just accept what everyone else accepts, and we commit atrocities in many cases for no better justification than our enjoyment of meat or fur.

People to tend to accept what the society they live in accepts, without first putting that thing through their own thought process, yes; you happen to be speaking to one of the few who don't do that - a genuine free-thinker. I don't accept that killing animals for meat is okay because everyone else does; I accept that it's okay because I can't reason that it's wrong.

Also, because I eat meat and support killing animals for meat; that does not mean I support the processing of animals in every instance. I don't necessarily support the industry.

Death is such a cruel punishment that in Europe it is not even dealt out to the greatest child molester or murderer, but still we deal it out in the billions every year for no good reason at all.

Would you eat those child molesters and murderers after they're killed? Nobody else would. If people ate other people no problem, you can bet your ass criminals would be put to death.

But it was a cute appeal to emotion, at any rate.

[KichigaiNeko]

As my favourite western philosopher said:
"We don't only owe the animals compassion, we also owe them justice."

We are flat out bring "justice" to ourselves. What sort of "justice" do you hope to "bring" to food animals?

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So Forbinator, you are objecting to the religious indoctrination of "dominion over the earth"?

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And yet you happily slay vegetation with gay abandon...

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So we are not talking about vegetarianism/ veganism but about the qualitative line that humans have drawn between themselves and every other animal?

Bullseye, but of course the issue is very, very tightly coupled to our behaviour as consumers. Once you remove the dogmatic line between human and non-human animals that comes from millenia of Christian indoctrination (among other things), I think it is just the logical next step to question our perception of meat and animal products in general.

A nice little ideology there but unhelpful.

The "perception of meat" is a very real consideration towards the health of a people. As rebcox has stated. I am also unable to utilise the various "nutrients" from vegetation to sustain optimal health. Then of course it comes down to the state of the soils as Rhythm has tried to show you. The degradation of an ecosystem is more profound when well meaning "vegan/vegetarian" let loose domestic animals into the environment, it is much more noticeable here in Oz I guess but as Rhythm has pointed out (in the GMO thread I think) vegan/vegetarianism is just as destructive as meat producing animals.

As for clothing, you can't beat leather for durability and biodegradability, same with wool and cotton and silk. Your synthetics come from Petroleum exploration and exploitation and the degradation of the environment twenty fold more than using animal based products. Plus of course the greater amount of energy (more degradation) utilised in producing the fibres that you seek to clothe yourself with.

The thought bubble of "using convicted criminals as meat" has merit but then this also will lead you to a conflict of conscience. Either way you are screwed. I would like to point you to whateverist's comment... you are part of this ecosystem called planet earth. Get over yourself and get on with living.

I Agree with your sentiments that cruelty (especially in the form of Kosher and Halal) killing of livestock is unacceptable .... to me it is nothing more that puny little man-thing conquering nature

Which I am to understand is the main thrust of your argument ...it is not a millennia of indoctrination, it is more likely 1.5 million years of trying to out smart and survive on a planet that is out to kill you if it can. Please stop anthropomorphising everything and get out of the nursery.

[littleendian]

I don't accept that killing animals for meat is okay because everyone else does; I accept that it's okay because I can't reason that it's wrong.

I assume you reason that killing other people is wrong. What rational distinction do you see between killing non-human animals who want to live and human animals who want to live?

[KichigaiNeko]

I don't accept that killing animals for meat is okay because everyone else does; I accept that it's okay because I can't reason that it's wrong.

I assume you reason that killing other people is wrong. What rational distinction do you see between killing non-human animals who want to live and human animals who want to live?

I like to live. You are making a case that you think it is NOT ok for me to live littleendian. As I and others have stated "we need meat to achieve optimal health"

[littleendian]

We are flat out bring "justice" to ourselves. What sort of "justice" do you hope to "bring" to food animals?

Not to be killed, not to be tortured like milk cows are when separated from their calfs, basically just to be left alone.

And yet you happily slay vegetation with gay abandon...

Plants do not have central nervous systems and it wouldn't make evolutionary sense for them to feel pain because they can't do much about the cause of pain, which is the evolutionary purpose of it.

The "perception of meat" is a very real consideration towards the health of a people. As rebcox has stated. I am also unable to utilise the various "nutrients" from vegetation to sustain optimal health.

Now that is not true in general, as is proven by many healthy vegans all over the world and also by many studies in nutrition. I personally am healthier than I ever was.

Then of course it comes down to the state of the soils as Rhythm has tried to show you. The degradation of an ecosystem is more profound when well meaning "vegan/vegetarian" let loose domestic animals into the environment

Nobody says we should have billions of cattle running around everywhere, eat the ones that are here now if you must and stop producing them in the billions.

As for clothing, you can't beat leather for durability and biodegradability

Leather you buy today e.g. in shoes is processed heavily and laden with chemicals, far from "bio-degradable".

you are part of this ecosystem called planet earth. Get over yourself and get on with living.

NO, I am not just part of an ecosystem, I am primarily part of a society that can decide what to do and what not to do, and I've made a decision. I am getting on with living, thanks for your concern, part of my purpose in life is talking about this to me very important issue.

Which I am to understand is the main thrust of your argument ...it is not a millennia of indoctrination, it is more likely 1.5 million years of trying to out smart and survive on a planet that is out to kill you if it can. Please stop anthropomorphising everything and get out of the nursery.

These cows or chickens or pigs never killed a man, they're merely victims. I'm not anthropomorphising, I'm saying we don't need to anthropomorphise these animals to have a responsibility toward them that doesnt allow us to torture and kill them.

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I assume you reason that killing other people is wrong. What rational distinction do you see between killing non-human animals who want to live and human animals who want to live?

I like to live. You are making a case that you think it is NOT ok for me to live littleendian. As I and others have stated "we need meat to achieve optimal health"

That is just not true, at least not in general, actually even small amounts of red meat (something like 200gram per week) already cause major health issues in the long run. There are millions of healthy vegans out there. But if you gave veganism a serious, committed, well-balanced try and your health really suffered then okay.

[Forbinator]

As I and others have stated "we need meat to achieve optimal health"

Wrong. This is obviously the childhood indoctrination talking. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12826028
There are also articles in the British Medical Journal and World Health Organisation publications.

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Leather production is very bad for the environment, and the chemicals used are dangerous for the workers who are exposed to them. http://www.peta.org/b/thepetafiles/archi...fault.aspx