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Physicallity and Undetectibility
#21
RE: Physicallity and Undetectibility
(June 19, 2013 at 6:46 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You can't know God did it. You can only try to discern purpose applying the reasoning for God. All things are from God. He did everything ultimately. The question is why, and what does that mean to you.
Miracles don't need to be statistically unlikely.
[bolding mine, of course]

Am I the only one that sees a problem here?
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#22
RE: Physicallity and Undetectibility
(June 19, 2013 at 6:21 pm)Baalzebutt Wrote:
(June 19, 2013 at 6:07 pm)Godschild Wrote:


I will ask you the same question: How do you know god did it? How do you differentiate between a miracle and a statistically unlikely event?

Like Fr0d0 said, we can't know all the miracles God does, so much of His work is done through man. Let me give you an example I see as a miracle. I use to belong to a church that had several elderly people and they were getting sick with different things, this occurred over a few years. When one of them became so sick they were dying and beginning to suffer our church would pray and ask God to take that person so they and the family would not have to go through the pain of suffering. Usually that person was gone in a couple of days, before their suffering got real bad, all these people were believed to have more time than just a couple of days, the doctors were expecting several days of suffering. Those were miracles and when I saw the families and how glad their loved one did not have to suffer, I knew we were right in asking for God to take them. In fact when it came to my fathers time and I knew he was not going to recover, I asked God to take him so he and mom would not have to suffer and God delivered another miracle. Knowing God can give one the discernment to understand when He works a miracle, not always but sometimes. Oh, statistically unlikely events that occur at a rate that is statistically unlikely are probably miracles. The best thing I actually know to say is you should try to get to know God and then you can learn about miracles form Him.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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#23
RE: Physicallity and Undetectibility
Coincidence, seeking meaning where there is none, does not equal miracle.

And if doctors were involved, god had nothing to do with it. The doctors are the healers, obviously.
“The man who can't visualize a horse galloping on a tomato is an idiot.”
~ André Breton
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#24
RE: Physicallity and Undetectibility
(June 19, 2013 at 9:22 pm)Faith No More Wrote:
(June 19, 2013 at 6:46 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You can't know God did it. You can only try to discern purpose applying the reasoning for God. All things are from God. He did everything ultimately. The question is why, and what does that mean to you.
Miracles don't need to be statistically unlikely.
[bolding mine, of course]

Am I the only one that sees a problem here?

lol Smile

All things are from God -assuming- God. You wouldn't agree with me there I presume, and there's no way for either of us to prove our assumption. Hence: "You can't know God did it".

(June 19, 2013 at 7:14 pm)Baalzebutt Wrote:
(June 19, 2013 at 7:04 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: You get punished to serve justice. Do you deserve punishment? Then you will receive it.
If God is just, and you are justly blameless, how can God punish you?

Shouldn't he be punishing himself?

If he were guilty, sure.
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#25
RE: Physicallity and Undetectibility
(June 20, 2013 at 1:26 am)fr0d0 Wrote: All things are from God -assuming- God. You wouldn't agree with me there I presume, and there's no way for either of us to prove our assumption. Hence: "You can't know God did it".

I don't get it...
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#26
RE: Physicallity and Undetectibility
(June 20, 2013 at 1:26 am)fr0d0 Wrote: lol Smile

All things are from God -assuming- God. You wouldn't agree with me there I presume, and there's no way for either of us to prove our assumption. Hence: "You can't know God did it".

If you can't know god did anything, then how are you possibly justified in assuming he does anything at all?
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee

Want to see more of my writing? Check out my (safe for work!) site, Unprotected Sects!
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#27
RE: Physicallity and Undetectibility
(June 20, 2013 at 1:26 am)fr0d0 Wrote:
(June 19, 2013 at 7:14 pm)Baalzebutt Wrote: Shouldn't he be punishing himself?

If he were guilty, sure.
Okay, let me guess: Your definition of God implies that even though he allegedly started this entire mess and supposedly "loves" us, He's not responsible for the trainwreck that's going down in Africa right now?
"Men see clearly enough the barbarity of all ages — except their own!" — Ernest Crosby.
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#28
RE: Physicallity and Undetectibility
(June 19, 2013 at 11:43 pm)Godschild Wrote: Like Fr0d0 said, we can't know all the miracles God does, so much of His work is done through man. Let me give you an example I see as a miracle. I use to belong to a church that had several elderly people and they were getting sick with different things, this occurred over a few years. When one of them became so sick they were dying and beginning to suffer our church would pray and ask God to take that person so they and the family would not have to go through the pain of suffering. Usually that person was gone in a couple of days, before their suffering got real bad, all these people were believed to have more time than just a couple of days, the doctors were expecting several days of suffering. Those were miracles and when I saw the families and how glad their loved one did not have to suffer, I knew we were right in asking for God to take them. In fact when it came to my fathers time and I knew he was not going to recover, I asked God to take him so he and mom would not have to suffer and God delivered another miracle. Knowing God can give one the discernment to understand when He works a miracle, not always but sometimes. Oh, statistically unlikely events that occur at a rate that is statistically unlikely are probably miracles. The best thing I actually know to say is you should try to get to know God and then you can learn about miracles form Him.

This brings up the whole problem with prayer: God has a plan but, if you pray hard enough, he will change the plan for you??

Prayer is absolutely contradictory to everything else you people say about your god. Does he have a plan or is he influenced by prayer?

What about all the people who do suffer? Not enough prayer or is it part of the plan??

Do you understand that your position makes absolutely no sense?
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." -Einstein
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#29
RE: Physicallity and Undetectibility
(June 19, 2013 at 11:43 pm)Godschild Wrote:


Baalz Wrote:This brings up the whole problem with prayer: God has a plan but, if you pray hard enough, he will change the plan for you??

No, God would never change His ultimate plan, that is unchangable, what I described to you was a person's death is going to happen, we asked God's mercy upon the person and family and it happened, more than once it happened. The death happened earlier than it could have, yet changed nothing in God's plan.

Baalz Wrote:Prayer is absolutely contradictory to everything else you people say about your god. Does he have a plan or is he influenced by prayer?

You've made a statement yet given nothing to substantiate your claim, so how did you come to this conclusion. God will listen to man, if He wouldn't then why did He ask us to pray, just so He could hear us talk, I don't think so! He wants a relationship with us and if there is no conversation in a relationship... well there's no relationship, pray is far more than asking. God will never be influenced to change His ultimate plan, yet our prayer can bring God's grace and mercy into peoples lives.

Baalz Wrote:What about all the people who do suffer? Not enough prayer or is it part of the plan??

There could be many reasons for those who do suffer, I've seen some great people suffer until they died, why I do not know, could of been that some were praying for selfish reasons, could be it would have effected God's ultimate will. Could be there was no prayer or prayer to a god that doesn't have ears to hear. There are many reasons and honestly only God knows why, I suppose you'll have to ask Him for the answers. We are told that all will be explained to us when the judgement comes, it will be then that the people of God will understand.

Baalz Wrote:Do you understand that your position makes absolutely no sense?

I understand it doesn't make sense to you but, it makes sense to me because I trust in the God I know and love. The things that make sense to you are that which you trust in, right. Well why should it be different for me, especially when I know God is more real than you or me.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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#30
RE: Physicallity and Undetectibility
(June 19, 2013 at 11:43 pm)Godschild Wrote:
(June 19, 2013 at 6:21 pm)Baalzebutt Wrote: I will ask you the same question: How do you know god did it? How do you differentiate between a miracle and a statistically unlikely event?

Like Fr0d0 said, we can't know all the miracles God does, so much of His work is done through man. Let me give you an example I see as a miracle. I use to belong to a church that had several elderly people and they were getting sick with different things, this occurred over a few years. When one of them became so sick they were dying and beginning to suffer our church would pray and ask God to take that person so they and the family would not have to go through the pain of suffering. Usually that person was gone in a couple of days, before their suffering got real bad, all these people were believed to have more time than just a couple of days, the doctors were expecting several days of suffering. Those were miracles and when I saw the families and how glad their loved one did not have to suffer, I knew we were right in asking for God to take them. In fact when it came to my fathers time and I knew he was not going to recover, I asked God to take him so he and mom would not have to suffer and God delivered another miracle. Knowing God can give one the discernment to understand when He works a miracle, not always but sometimes. Oh, statistically unlikely events that occur at a rate that is statistically unlikely are probably miracles. The best thing I actually know to say is you should try to get to know God and then you can learn about miracles form Him.
Wait, now people dying is evidence of the miraculous? My, how the standards have lowered.

(June 20, 2013 at 11:44 am)Baalzebutt Wrote:
(June 19, 2013 at 11:43 pm)Godschild Wrote: Like Fr0d0 said, we can't know all the miracles God does, so much of His work is done through man. Let me give you an example I see as a miracle. I use to belong to a church that had several elderly people and they were getting sick with different things, this occurred over a few years. When one of them became so sick they were dying and beginning to suffer our church would pray and ask God to take that person so they and the family would not have to go through the pain of suffering. Usually that person was gone in a couple of days, before their suffering got real bad, all these people were believed to have more time than just a couple of days, the doctors were expecting several days of suffering. Those were miracles and when I saw the families and how glad their loved one did not have to suffer, I knew we were right in asking for God to take them. In fact when it came to my fathers time and I knew he was not going to recover, I asked God to take him so he and mom would not have to suffer and God delivered another miracle. Knowing God can give one the discernment to understand when He works a miracle, not always but sometimes. Oh, statistically unlikely events that occur at a rate that is statistically unlikely are probably miracles. The best thing I actually know to say is you should try to get to know God and then you can learn about miracles form Him.

This brings up the whole problem with prayer: God has a plan but, if you pray hard enough, he will change the plan for you??

Prayer is absolutely contradictory to everything else you people say about your god. Does he have a plan or is he influenced by prayer?

What about all the people who do suffer? Not enough prayer or is it part of the plan??

Do you understand that your position makes absolutely no sense?
Obviously, you praying was all part of the plan! Next question.
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