Determinism.....

[solarwave]

Hey,

I was just wondering if you believe we are all determined by physics and so our lives were determined before we were born? Or that we can make our own choices?

Solarwave

[Tiberius]

Used to believe in free will. Science has recently shown that it is unlikely. Our subconscious mind makes decisions before our conscious apparently thinks about it.

Determinism in physics is completely different though. That's all about predicting the state of particles, which quantum mechanics says is impossible.

[Eilonnwy]

I've heard the whole "We are computers" argument and I don't buy it. We may be influenced by what's around us and our experiences but we still have choices.

[theblindferrengi]

Are we not governed by the laws of physics? Dont remember walking through any solid matter recently, so im guessing we are. Anyone can, and many have, say that all the hapenings were predetermined, there is no way to prove it either way, as the people with the circular reasoning who argue that will just say thought is just an illusion to simulate free will. If there needs to be a simulation of free will, then we would have had to have had free will and had it taken from us. Acording to the theorys of general relativity, the future is predetermined, in that it can be calculated, and everything is predictable. This only aplies to extremely massive objects (stars, planets, giant lumps of matter) that only fit out in space. Quantum mechanics states that everything is uncertian, and unpredictable. This only applies to extremely small objects, like subatomic particles. A human is somewhere in between, so it is hard to say, so it is more a matter of personal preference, as some people take comfort in thinking everything is predetermined, while others like thinking and making decisions.

[leo-rcc]

I am missing one thing in this poll. "I don't know"

I really have no idea.

[solarwave]

Tiberius: I heard that our subconscious sometimes thinks differently than our conscious, so could it be that what we do depends on whether we (the conscious) can over come the will of the subconscious?

Eilonnwy: From where then does the free choice come from? The brain? Is the brain the cause of its own thoughts then or from data stored and stimuli.

theblindferrengi: The thing with quantum mechanics is that it is only unpredictable as very small scales. Lots of unpredictable things together become predictable. Eg: You can predict the outcome of the collision of two masses, one wont appear somewhere else because of the uncertainty of the tiny particles that make it up. So it doesn't seem to make physics bigger than molecules uncertain.

By the way I havn't stated my view here, just throwing thoughts out.

[Eilonnwy]

It's always about the brain.

[Tiberius]

Tiberius: I heard that our subconscious sometimes thinks differently than our conscious, so could it be that what we do depends on whether we (the conscious) can over come the will of the subconscious?

Yes, and the day they show that the results of the experiment are wrong, or that we can somehow overcome our subconsciousness, I will probably switch back again. So far, all the evidence looks like we are just natural machines. The only difference is that we have self-awareness, and the illusion of choice.

[leo-rcc]

So does that mean you owe Lacie Green an apology Adrian. :p

[Tiberius]

No. She still used a crap example, and her version of determinism is based entirely in philosophy. I prefer the version the scientists have brought out, with...y'know...evidence