Religious Leaders

[davidMC1982]

Whenever I talk to someone about their beliefs, I like to go beyond the religion they identify with and discuss what it is they actually believe. It helps to determine whether the label they attach to themselves is socially driven, belief driven, culturally driven, etc etc. Generally, I find that most people's beliefs are quite far removed from those of their religion. This is no surprise.

Religious leaders (Fathers, Bishops, Priests, Rabbis, Imams etc) are in a unique position in that they are part of the religious "elite" (I use "elite" in the loosest sense possible). As such, one would expect them to be steadfast in their belief. However, from an atheist's point of view, one must remember that they are people like any other. With this in mind, wouldn't it be great to get honest answers from them on the points that really define their religion? Answers to questions such as:

"Do you really believe there is a personal god who watches over you; judges you; cares for you?"

"As the Pope, do you really believe you have been appointed by God? That you have a direct, personal relationship with God?"

"Do you genuinely believe there are 72 virgins waiting for you in heaven?"

"Does it really make sense to you that Jesus (God personified), died on a cross for sins our ancestors had commited, were currently committing, would go on to commit and the sins we have committed, are committing and will commit? Yet we still have to follow the word of God and ask for forgiveness for our already forgiven sins if we are to enter heaven?"

"With not a single word in the bible about Popes, Priests, Father's, Nuns, on what grounds are your positions, duties and powers based?"

I'm not specifically looking for answers to these questions from forum members. What I ask is this; in your opinion, do religious leaders epitomise the true believer? Maybe they don't believe and are wilfully dishonest? Perhaps, as studies of corporate leaders have shown, they have a high rate of psychopathy?

Or more succintly; religious leaders. What are you thoughts on them; what are your experiences of them?

Personally, I'm skeptical that someone who has the intelligence to reach the top of their chosen field would genuinely, in their heart of hearts, believe things that have no basis in reality. I suggest they are either wilfully ignorant or wilfully dishonest.

[Angrboda]

In my opinion, the skew toward "psychopathy" among corporate leaders is grossly exaggerated by both lay people and the media.

Regards to getting honest answers from leaders, a couple points should be borne in mind.

First, a leader 'leads'; it is their responsibility to take the people under their care and move them from where they currently are to a place he believes is better. A leader leads by having a different opinion than the consensus, not by reflecting consensus. (Though, in a related vein, it is said that a leader must also follow: a leader must know the will of the people and not get too far out in front of them, lest he estrange them and cease to be an effective leader.)

Second, a leader is morally charged with doing what is in the best interest of the people they lead, and many times that requires curtailing one's personal liberties in word or act when not doing so might endanger a legitimate interest of those under their stewardship. (And this restriction extends both forward and backward. I recall a story from my brother-in-law about how the son or employee of an important business owner acted irresponsibly in some fashion, getting a DUI or something, and how part of the consequences of that irresponsibility is that he would be excluded from selection for higher positions in the company because his demonstrated ability to neglect his responsibilities would not be tolerated in a position in which he exercised great power.)

Anyway, I've been watching some educational videos on game theory, so the question which keeps popping into mind is, "Is a religious leader giving honest answers to outsider's questions an example of a Nash equilibrium?"


(Wikipedia: )

[Lemonvariable72]

Whenever I talk to someone about their beliefs, I like to go beyond the religion they identify with and discuss what it is they actually believe. It helps to determine whether the label they attach to themselves is socially driven, belief driven, culturally driven, etc etc. Generally, I find that most people's beliefs are quite far removed from those of their religion. This is no surprise.

Religious leaders (Fathers, Bishops, Priests, Rabbis, Imams etc) are in a unique position in that they are part of the religious "elite" (I use "elite" in the loosest sense possible). As such, one would expect them to be steadfast in their belief. However, from an atheist's point of view, one must remember that they are people like any other. With this in mind, wouldn't it be great to get honest answers from them on the points that really define their religion? Answers to questions such as:

"Do you really believe there is a personal god who watches over you; judges you; cares for you?"

"As the Pope, do you really believe you have been appointed by God? That you have a direct, personal relationship with God?"

"Do you genuinely believe there are 72 virgins waiting for you in heaven?"

"Does it really make sense to you that Jesus (God personified), died on a cross for sins our ancestors had commited, were currently committing, would go on to commit and the sins we have committed, are committing and will commit? Yet we still have to follow the word of God and ask for forgiveness for our already forgiven sins if we are to enter heaven?"

"With not a single word in the bible about Popes, Priests, Father's, Nuns, on what grounds are your positions, duties and powers based?"

I'm not specifically looking for answers to these questions from forum members. What I ask is this; in your opinion, do religious leaders epitomise the true believer? Maybe they don't believe and are wilfully dishonest? Perhaps, as studies of corporate leaders have shown, they have a high rate of psychopathy?

Or more succintly; religious leaders. What are you thoughts on them; what are your experiences of them?

Personally, I'm skeptical that someone who has the intelligence to reach the top of their chosen field would genuinely, in their heart of hearts, believe things that have no basis in reality. I suggest they are either wilfully ignorant or wilfully dishonest.

Do not too skeptical on the intelligence part, there are very intelligent christians out there. That said I kind of think that when you ask religious leaders there stance on things they tend to feed you the status quo , weither they buy it or not. The reason is that these are very public people and things have a way of getting to church memebers, some of whom are often very judgemental and snotty people (every church has a few.) Not to mention religious leaders that no longer believe will find themselves in a very difficult situation: Tell the truth and lose allot(Including possibilities of physcial harm), or go along with the lie and become sick with yourself.

[Angrboda]

Do not too skeptical on the intelligence part, there are very intelligent christians out there. That said I kind of think that when you ask religious leaders there stance on things they tend to feed you the status quo , weither they buy it or not. The reason is that these are very public people and things have a way of getting to church memebers, some of whom are often very judgemental and snotty people (every church has a few.) Not to mention religious leaders that no longer believe will find themselves in a very difficult situation: Tell the truth and lose allot(Including possibilities of physcial harm), or go along with the lie and become sick with yourself.

Daniel Dennett conducted a study in which they interviewed about a half dozen church leaders, priests and pastors, who were atheists. They no longer believed in God, yet they continued to function as church leaders and hide their atheism. The reasoning was quite simple. Being a church leader is all they're qualified to do, it's all they've trained for, and it's all they've done for many years. They have no transferable job skills, and many have financial obligations which they wouldn't be able to meet if they gave up their church positions. Moreover all their professional and social contacts are a result of their work and belief, and much of their support would be withdrawn if they revealed themselves as atheists. They basically have no viable alternative but to remain closeted.

[ThomM]

Coming from a family in which two of my father's brothers were priests - and having actually gone to the seminary for a period of time as I was being raised to be a priest - One forgets that religion is a BUSINESS - not just a belief.

Ask a leader of GENERAL MOTORS or FORD if he actually believes that they make the very best cars on the road - and in public - they will likely attempt NOT to answer that question - because that is NOT their business. They are not in business to produce the BEST cars - regardless of cost - they are in the business of supply a good mainstream product to the largest group of people driving cars. That is how they make money.

A priest is in the business of selling his religion - that is how THEY make money - and that is why there is such an emphasis on MONEY in their training. In every business - there are things you want to show to the buyers - and there are things you hope the buyers are not as interested in. So - most people do not want a $1 million dollar car - that can do everything. Most want a car that gets them from place to place - that is reliable - and affordable to THEM

ANd that is the SPIN that religious leaders must put on their PRODUCT. I will go as to say that NO priest believes every detail of their religion - and they are open to the fact that some of them are simply not true. It takes are real idiot to attempt to get money from people in telling them that the earth IS A FLAT round object (A circle) - when we already KNOW it is not.
So - as time passes- religious leaders have had to change the FOCUS of their teachings to things more abstract - know that many things that ancients believed were simply not true. There will always be people who will believe what they were taught - even it is NOT true (NOTE - a senator who still believes that the earth is the center of the Universe) - but most will overlook those things - especially when they are ignored by the priest doing the teaching.

And that is why xtianity does not preach to actually read the ENTIRE bible - because there ARE too many things that are substantially wrong - proven wrong - and are contradictory - and they cannot teach around those things. But they still have an infrastructure to support - as well as themselves - so teaching LOVE and CARING gets around that well for most uneducated people.

It when people are educated enough to know that there is no basis for the religion to begin with that religion is fading away - as it is doing today.

[davidMC1982]

Thanks for the replies so far.

Regarding the intellligence of religious believers, I have no doubt that they can be as intelligent as anybody else. But it surely is puzzling that an otherwise intelligent person doesn't recognise the mental contortions they have to go through to reconcile their religious views with reality. That, or they're wilfully ignorant.

Regarding the career/business element, which nicely coincides with Dan Dennett study, religious leaders are much like politicians in this sense. Irrespective of their own beliefs, their livelihood depends on saying what people want to hear. This certainly explains why someone who no longer believes will hide this fact to maintain the status quo. I'm willing to bet that a high percentage of the Christian clergy are like this. I'd like to be able to say the same about Islamic and Jewish leaders also, as it means that organised religion is a generation on two away from dying out, but their religions seem much more rooted in social and cultural tradition. As such, I think the conflicts in their mind will be much smaller. They might doubt many of the claims of their religion, but they can still retain their sense of identity.

On another point, it would be great to hear what some Catholics think about the Pope. How do they reconcile everything their religion is supposed to have taught about greed and wealth, worshipping false gods etc etc, with the extreme wealth of the Catholic church, its power hierarchy, and the idolisation of the Pope? Are they not skeptical of the process used to elect a new Pope, someone who is supposedly appointed by God? Does the child abuse scandal alter your perception of the Catholic Church? I just can't help but laugh when I see the Pope get driven round in his little glass box, being displayed like some zoo animal. He clearly doesn't think his god will protect him from the unwashed masses.

[Lemonvariable72]

Thanks for the replies so far.

Regarding the intellligence of religious believers, I have no doubt that they can be as intelligent as anybody else. But it surely is puzzling that an otherwise intelligent person doesn't recognise the mental contortions they have to go through to reconcile their religious views with reality. That, or they're wilfully ignorant.

Regarding the career/business element, which nicely coincides with Dan Dennett study, religious leaders are much like politicians in this sense. Irrespective of their own beliefs, their livelihood depends on saying what people want to hear. This certainly explains why someone who no longer believes will hide this fact to maintain the status quo. I'm willing to bet that a high percentage of the Christian clergy are like this. I'd like to be able to say the same about Islamic and Jewish leaders also, as it means that organised religion is a generation on two away from dying out, but their religions seem much more rooted in social and cultural tradition. As such, I think the conflicts in their mind will be much smaller. They might doubt many of the claims of their religion, but they can still retain their sense of identity.

On another point, it would be great to hear what some Catholics think about the Pope. How do they reconcile everything their religion is supposed to have taught about greed and wealth, worshipping false gods etc etc, with the extreme wealth of the Catholic church, its power hierarchy, and the idolisation of the Pope? Are they not skeptical of the process used to elect a new Pope, someone who is supposedly appointed by God? Does the child abuse scandal alter your perception of the Catholic Church? I just can't help but laugh when I see the Pope get driven round in his little glass box, being displayed like some zoo animal. He clearly doesn't think his god will protect him from the unwashed masses.

Please pray for the poor while I hold this large pure gold cross on my gold and bejeweled throne.
Thats how I some up the papacy.