Free Will, Free Won't?

[Zone]

You don't recognize how psychological research can contribute to philosophical discussions of the mind?

I do but I'm allowed to disagree with you. I have the freewill to do so, at least I think I have tricky thing to prove either way I know and life will be unaffected whether we have or not. But to avoid cognitive dissonance it's better to assume that we do have this ability, unless there is a reason why we should not.

I have no choice but to question the credibility of your "A-level" pertaining to psychology if you are unaware of the impact made on the field by studying the effects of the subconscious. If "A-level" means you got an A (grade) in the class

No it means "Advanced Level" I got a C in it if that's of any relevance.

I have a hard time believing you did so, and still manage to display such ignorance pertaining to the subconscious. Unless, this "A" you recieved was a very VERY long time ago. In which case, a refresher may be in order.

There is nothing in psychology that states that we do not have freewill, yes people will tend to behave in particular ways but can't be 100% sure what they will do. This is a philosophical question really.

I recieved an A in biology my freshman year in college, but for the life of me, I can't remember the entire periodic table. But your lack of understanding of the subconscious is comparable to me being unable to identify a mammal after taking biology. I think we're done here.

I know all about the subconscious but I'm saying you're mistaken in thinking that the subconscious somehow commands us. We can consciously override an suggestions it gives us with the higher part of our brain function. It's this part of the brain that allows us to have freewill. The lower animals may well lack this ability.

[The Reality Salesman01]

[Zone]

Fuck off, you demented mother fucker. Get your sub-conscious mind to get your head sorted out.

[The Reality Salesman01]

Hey, don't get angry.! I'm just bustin balls. Clearly you're free to think whatever you want!... Or are you?

Just kidding. Don't answer that!

[Whateverist]

I know all about the subconscious but I'm saying you're mistaken in thinking that the subconscious somehow commands us. We can consciously override an suggestions it gives us with the higher part of our brain function. It's this part of the brain that allows us to have freewill. The lower animals may well lack this ability.

There was a psychological experiment whose results made a big impression on me. Apparently a person agreed to be hypnotized on stage and once hypnotized was given the post hypnotic suggestion to unscrew the light bulb in the lamp directly above where they were sitting on stage at a specified time. He was also directed not to recall receiving the command. When the subject was taken out of the hypnotic state he continued chatting with the hypnotist on stage .. until the time specified. Then the subject got up and unscrewed the bulb. The hypnotist asked him why he did that. The subject spontaneously came up with a rationale which he hadn't been given by the hypnotist and neither was the subject aware of fabricating it himself. Nonetheless he gave a plausible sounding reason.

This would seem to indicate that when we are fully conscious we are not always aware why we do what we do. The reasons we produce may at times be a narrative which has more to do with justifying our actions than choosing them. Of course we do not normally receive post hypnotic suggestions. But the experiment would seem to indicate we may not always be able to recognize our true motives.

Sorry I can't remember the source for the experiment but I heard of it in a college psychology course. But I think it is food for thought. I agree with you that there are probably many decisions we make which are not at all determined unconsciously. However I suspect there are plenty more decisions we make which are fairly predictable given who we are. I also agree that it is not at all disagreeable to lack the freedom to choose freely in cases where only one choice is really coherent given who you are. But then I think there is plenty that we do during the day that is essentially done on auto-pilot. Sometimes conscious input is neither required nor sought by our mental activity. The mammals that we are can quite well make many small decisions without bringing the issues to conscious awareness. Conscious awareness, especially that involving discursive thought, is an add on to an intact and efficient mammal brain. Conscious 'us' is not the total 'us'. The buck does not always stop with us. However, and especially when not much rides on the decision, we are entirely left to our conscious best devices to make a decision. Not every decision we make as human beings probably even registers as important to our basic mammalian mind. In those cases, if we don't don't consciously decide, it won't get done.

[The Reality Salesman01]

It seems as though we are poor judges of our actions, retrospectively.

[gall]

Fuck off, you demented mother fucker. Get your sub-conscious mind to get your head sorted out.

This should totally work right?

[gilbertc06]

As far as people know, they are locked into a biological body. Forget about idealogy or social structures. By the simple fact that people need water to live, there is no true free will.

[bennyboy]

There is nothing in psychology that states that we do not have freewill, yes people will tend to behave in particular ways but can't be 100% sure what they will do. This is a philosophical question really.

It is very much a philosophical question, because you have to define free will, and there's some subjectivity in choosing that definition.

However, you are wrong to say that nothing in psychology states we do not have freewill. There are many cases in which a person loses control of his/her behavior. There are also new experiments in which people who THINK they are fully conscious of their own decision-making process actually start to act on an impulse before they are consciously aware of it.

Now, I don't think those experiments are strong enough to discard some important role for an experiencing, feeling being beyond simple brain chemistry. But they certainly exist, and to completely disregard them would be to hide from the truth.

[MindForgedManacle]

I know all about the subconscious but I'm saying you're mistaken in thinking that the subconscious somehow commands us. We can consciously override an suggestions it gives us with the higher part of our brain function. It's this part of the brain that allows us to have freewill. The lower animals may well lack this ability.

That is the problem with every single attempt to say we have free will (in the libertarian sense). If you're going to suggest some sort of substance (dualism) or higher brain function that is supposed to 'give' us free will, you're not thinking it through enough. If this other substance or higher brain function behaves in determined ways, there is no 'I' 'choosing' what to do, it is simply acting as its nature dictates. But if this substance or higher brain function behaves indeterministically, then there is still no control over it, it's behavior is unpredictable, random, and thus not controlled; it simply acts.

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As far as people know, they are locked into a biological body. Forget about idealogy or social structures. By the simple fact that people need water to live, there is no true free will.

No concept of free will has ever meant anything like the ability to do anything, like not having biological dependencies.