Randomness

[Nick A.]

Randomness... also known as an absence of order.

The principles of atheistic logic in most cases denounce any sort of spontaneity or randomness, but I've heard many times in Physics classes about the Uncertainty principle and/or the "random" location and behavior of electrons. This is just a brief scientific example of course, but most people, including many of my secular friends, uphold the existence of randomness. I for one, see no reason for this. Does randomness truly exist? How can it? There is a difference between what we know, what we can observe, what we can conceive, and what actually exists.

Say for example, I write numbers on cards, with one card being labeled "1," another labeled "2," and so on. I place them all in a bag, close my eyes, and choose one. We refer to that result as random, but it logistically, and quite obviously, isn't random at all. In simple terms, my brain told my arm and hand to move to a location, grasp a card, and pull it out - it is no more "random" than anything else. The only different part is that I personally do not know the result before or whilst choosing a card.

What's your take on randomness?

~Nick

[fr0d0]

It's a necessary delusion to support an atheist worldview

[Meatball]

That sort of thing always had me curious.

I think quantum physics actually has (to our current understanding) some truly random actions, but I'm no expert.

[Nick A.]

Well because electrons are moving at such an inconceivably fast rate, we can only map probability areas (orbitals). . . but how can it be random!? Something is deciding where the electron will go next, I firmly believe that. I have trouble conceiving true randomness.

[Violet]

I have a large bag filled with 3 red and 1234567890 blue marbles. When i select one... the probability of me selecting red is very low. I reach in, and select a red marble. This was a random selection. My next 1234567890 selections from the bag could all be red. The 1234567891th selection could be blue. Blindly choosing a marble from a bag of marbles is really quite random

How is it random? Because you could choose any marble from the bag. That's how the choice was random It is only not random if there is some sort of fate guiding the universe, or otherwise influencing the choice knowledgeably.

[Nick A.]

How is it random? Because you could choose any marble from the bag.

Yes, but your brain did tell your arm to move to such and such location, and that was NOT random. Therefore the corresponding choice is not random. You may not be aware what the choice is, but the choice is taking place just the same. Is it not?

It is only not random if there is some sort of fate guiding the universe, or otherwise influencing the choice knowledgeably.

I'm not citing the lack of randomness as a result of fate, but rather logical order..cause and effect. How can something take place without an initiative or a reason?

[Secularone]

I must reject the notion of randomness (chaos) with respect to physics.

That we do not know the cause of a result does not mean there is no cause.
As far as I am aware, science has never concluded that it has found an example of randomness or chaos.

Every algorithm has but a single result. No algorithm produces two or more different results.
Everything is the product of an algorithm. This is the argument for determinism.

Not that I like the idea, but if I have no good evidence to falsify it, I must accept it.
I refuse to be dogmatic and pretend science doesn't have credibility.

It is also a very good argument against the concept of god. Think about it. Is god chaos? If not, then god is a slave to order just as everything else that exists.

[fr0d0]

[Copy and pasted for fun ]

It is also a very good argument against the concept of god. Think about it. Is god chaos? If not, then god is a slave to order just as everything else that exists.

Well that's very odd you've said the exact same thing twice: http://atheistforums.org/thread-2086-pos...l#pid37342

Are you cutting and pasting SO?

It's a fallacious statement assuming slavery when that cannot be assumed given chaos or order. If God's nature was chaos then from him would come chaos. Yet given our universe seems ordered we can assume an ordered creation. How to you equate chaos with good? I'd suggest order is good and therefore proves that God is also good.

[Secularone]

Yes, I'm cutting and pasting when and where I deem it appropriate. Some folks don't read every thread.

[fr0d0]

Like I've said before SO, you ARE the atheist street preacher. I don't know why you don't post in all caps and bold all the time.