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RE: Certainty
September 20, 2013 at 9:00 am
(September 20, 2013 at 12:27 am)Max_Kolbe Wrote: "Doubt is uncomfortable but tolerable, certainty is just ridiculous."
I completely agree with this.
I am an atheist, I assert that there are no deities. This assertion is not a certainty, it is a leap of faith, but one I can reason and I am comfortable with that.
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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RE: Certainty
September 20, 2013 at 9:14 am
Certainty is not important to me. If a god popped up and proved itself tomorrow, I can't see that changing how I live. All the descriptions of major deities I have heard of have been so unpleasant that if Jehovah or Allah or Zeus appeared today, I would reject their authority and pissy rules, find the anti-god camp, join it, and keep living by the moral code I have now. If the really nasty Allah showed up and said, "Yes, I AM offended by women learning how to read and showing their faces in public," I would fight against that tooth and nail because it's so self-evidently terrible and unreasonable. So poo to your god and his dicky rules. If he's real, who the fuck cares? He's unworthy of me.
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RE: Certainty
September 20, 2013 at 11:54 am
(This post was last modified: September 20, 2013 at 11:55 am by ManMachine.)
(September 20, 2013 at 9:14 am)Zazzy Wrote: Certainty is not important to me. If a god popped up and proved itself tomorrow, I can't see that changing how I live. All the descriptions of major deities I have heard of have been so unpleasant that if Jehovah or Allah or Zeus appeared today, I would reject their authority and pissy rules, find the anti-god camp, join it, and keep living by the moral code I have now. If the really nasty Allah showed up and said, "Yes, I AM offended by women learning how to read and showing their faces in public," I would fight against that tooth and nail because it's so self-evidently terrible and unreasonable. So poo to your god and his dicky rules. If he's real, who the fuck cares? He's unworthy of me.
I'm sure there are people more qualified than me on the topic of Islam but my own personal take is not to accept the first interpretation of any religious text as the definitave one. It is apparent that there is also a lot of 'interpretation' when it comes to the matter of Women in Islam.
I know how annoyed I feel when I'm dealing with ignorant religious people making blanket statements about atheism when they clearly have done no research or even bothered to find out some basics. And I'm certainly not advocating any religion (as an atheist) but I do advocate doing a little research before making generalised comments on matters concerning other people's faiths.
A quick google search returned this wiki page.
Women in Islam
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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RE: Certainty
September 20, 2013 at 2:20 pm
(September 20, 2013 at 11:54 am)ManMachine Wrote: I'm sure there are people more qualified than me on the topic of Islam but my own personal take is not to accept the first interpretation of any religious text as the definitave one. It is apparent that there is also a lot of 'interpretation' when it comes to the matter of Women in Islam.
I know how annoyed I feel when I'm dealing with ignorant religious people making blanket statements about atheism when they clearly have done no research or even bothered to find out some basics. And I'm certainly not advocating any religion (as an atheist) but I do advocate doing a little research before making generalised comments on matters concerning other people's faiths.
A quick google search returned this wiki page.MM
Women in Islam
I am not making blanket statements- I said "if the the really nasty Allah showed up," and I suppose I should have said "if the really nasty VERSION of Allah showed up." There are, to be sure, versions of Allah who are not so awful. Sadly, however, this version is out there, and this is the version I was taking a potshot at, and I make no excuses for that.
It's so difficult to know how one's words will be taken; I suppose I will learn to be clearer as I go.
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RE: Certainty
September 20, 2013 at 4:32 pm
(September 20, 2013 at 2:20 pm)Zazzy Wrote: (September 20, 2013 at 11:54 am)ManMachine Wrote: I'm sure there are people more qualified than me on the topic of Islam but my own personal take is not to accept the first interpretation of any religious text as the definitave one. It is apparent that there is also a lot of 'interpretation' when it comes to the matter of Women in Islam.
I know how annoyed I feel when I'm dealing with ignorant religious people making blanket statements about atheism when they clearly have done no research or even bothered to find out some basics. And I'm certainly not advocating any religion (as an atheist) but I do advocate doing a little research before making generalised comments on matters concerning other people's faiths.
A quick google search returned this wiki page.MM
Women in Islam
I am not making blanket statements- I said "if the the really nasty Allah showed up," and I suppose I should have said "if the really nasty VERSION of Allah showed up." There are, to be sure, versions of Allah who are not so awful. Sadly, however, this version is out there, and this is the version I was taking a potshot at, and I make no excuses for that.
It's so difficult to know how one's words will be taken; I suppose I will learn to be clearer as I go.
Don't get me wrong, the use of any social mechanism to justify the oppression or subjugation of women is abhorrent.
It seems to me to be a better strategy to leave the deities out of this kind of approach because as far as I'm concerned Allah et.al. do not exist, but the vile-minded, assholes who misappropriate religion to justify their own misogynistic bullshit do, and they should be exposed from behind their twisted interpretations.
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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RE: Certainty
September 20, 2013 at 5:19 pm
(September 20, 2013 at 4:32 pm)ManMachine Wrote: Don't get me wrong, the use of any social mechanism to justify the oppression or subjugation of women is abhorrent. Three cheers for this statement!
Quote:It seems to me to be a better strategy to leave the deities out of this kind of approach because as far as I'm concerned Allah et.al. do not exist, but the vile-minded, assholes who misappropriate religion to justify their own misogynistic bullshit do, and they should be exposed from behind their twisted interpretations.
Isn't this thread about certainty in a god or in the lack of it? How can I leave gods-specific OR general-out of that discussion? My exact point was if I became certain that such a god existed, I would thumb my nose at it. If a sweet, loving god who wished us to treat each other gently and teach our children math and poetry and impulse control showed up, my life would be little different, except that I'd be certain such a god existed. I'm saying that practically, the certainty or lack of it in any god is totally irrelevant.
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RE: Certainty
September 20, 2013 at 6:35 pm
(September 20, 2013 at 5:19 pm)Zazzy Wrote: (September 20, 2013 at 4:32 pm)ManMachine Wrote: Don't get me wrong, the use of any social mechanism to justify the oppression or subjugation of women is abhorrent. Three cheers for this statement!
Quote:It seems to me to be a better strategy to leave the deities out of this kind of approach because as far as I'm concerned Allah et.al. do not exist, but the vile-minded, assholes who misappropriate religion to justify their own misogynistic bullshit do, and they should be exposed from behind their twisted interpretations.
Isn't this thread about certainty in a god or in the lack of it? How can I leave gods-specific OR general-out of that discussion? My exact point was if I became certain that such a god existed, I would thumb my nose at it. If a sweet, loving god who wished us to treat each other gently and teach our children math and poetry and impulse control showed up, my life would be little different, except that I'd be certain such a god existed. I'm saying that practically, the certainty or lack of it in any god is totally irrelevant.
You're right. I kind of wandered off the point there.
MM
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions" - Leonardo da Vinci
"I think I use the term “radical” rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean atheist, I really do not believe that there is a god; in fact, I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one ... etc., etc. It’s easier to say that I am a radical atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously." - Douglas Adams (and I echo the sentiment)
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RE: Certainty
September 20, 2013 at 6:44 pm
um, I'm confused. Did Voltaire say that too?
If I were to create self aware beings knowing fully what they would do in their lifetimes, I sure wouldn't create a HELL for the majority of them to live in infinitely! That's not Love, that's sadistic. Therefore a truly loving god does not exist!
Quote:The sin is against an infinite being (God) unforgiven infinitely, therefore the punishment is infinite.
Dead wrong. The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.
Quote:Some people deserve hell.
I say again: No exceptions. Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it. As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.
![[Image: tumblr_n1j4lmACk61qchtw3o1_500.gif]](https://66.media.tumblr.com/5fb74c6d16622fb3dbb358509c9aec03/tumblr_n1j4lmACk61qchtw3o1_500.gif)
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RE: Certainty
September 20, 2013 at 9:01 pm
Max-Kolbe Wrote:"Doubt is uncomfortable but tolerable, certainty is just ridiculous."
Are you certain about that?
Yes. I'm certain that certainty in the existence of a god is ridiculous, just as certainty in the non-existence of god is equally ridiculous (at this present time).
For those who can't tolerate the uncomfortable feeling of doubt, there are many religions to choose from. Me, I'm an agnostic atheist. I choose not to choose to believe in something I cannot justify the existence for, and therefore let the evidence I find in this life lead the way to my conclusions---not the other way around.
If I were to create self aware beings knowing fully what they would do in their lifetimes, I sure wouldn't create a HELL for the majority of them to live in infinitely! That's not Love, that's sadistic. Therefore a truly loving god does not exist!
Quote:The sin is against an infinite being (God) unforgiven infinitely, therefore the punishment is infinite.
Dead wrong. The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.
Quote:Some people deserve hell.
I say again: No exceptions. Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it. As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.
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RE: Certainty
September 20, 2013 at 11:10 pm
Yeah, certainty in the superdupernatural is weird. But that doesn't make me want to defend a creed of anti-theism. I don't waste any time worrying if any gods exist and I don't really care. But why? It isn't because I think I have a rock solid proof that the superdupernatural is bunko. Such claims just don't alarm me and seem not to deserve a response. Language is largely a frigging waste of time anyway, why worry about silly claims which include the admission that verification is not possible. Screw that. I've got bigger fish to fry.
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