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the so fallible Bible
RE: the so fallible Bible
I have come to the last of the questions I had planned for this topic.

What is Jesus' central teaching?

Liberal Christians would probably say that it is the command to love one another. Conservatives more likely believe it is the "good news" that Jesus died for us. Of course there is some crossover. Liberals like to say that Jesus' death on the cross is the supreme example of love, and conservatives will agree that we should love one another because our Savior commanded it. Neither is correct.

The command to "love one another as I have loved you" comes from the Gospel of John, a late work (ca 90 CE) which hardly contains one authentic word of Jesus. In fairness, Jesus probably did quote the OT command to "love your neighbor as yourself" as recorded in the other three gospels. The three synoptic gospels contain all that we know of the teaching of Jesus, but they are certainly not free from additions. Most NT scholars with no commitment to biblical inerrancy are confident that that the material in the synoptics about Jesus' sacrifice have been injected back into the story, especially the account of Passion Week. Take, for instance, Jesus' supposed words at the Last Supper: "This [bread] is my body given into death for you." This represents the theology that developed around Jesus years after his death rather than his actual teaching.

Matthew 16:28 gives us the kernel of Jesus' teaching:
Quote:Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.
C. S. Lewis called this "the most embarrassing verse in the Bible." Jesus saw his mission as warning people that the end of the world would come within the lifetime of his contemporaries. Thus he fits in with a long line of apocalyptic prophets from Daniel in the Old Testament to Harold Camping a few years ago, all of whom definitely prophesied the end within the space of a few years.

This is not the only passage which promises a speedy coming of God's kingdom. There is also Matthew 10:23 where Jesus tells the disciples: "Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." Christians sometimes try to evade the problem by claiming that these prophecies refer to the destruction of Jerusalem which did indeed happen less than 40 years after Jesus; ministry. Certainly he thought Jerusalem would be destroyed but for him it is merely the immediate prelude to a cataclysm involving the whole earth as he more than once foretells catastrophes in the natural world such as the sun darkening and the stars falling from the sky (Matt. 24:29) and also Luke 21:
Quote:25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

The first to recognize that apocalyptic prophecy is at the heart of Jesus' message was Albert Schweitzer in 1906. Yes, the humanitarian medical doctor who also had a doctorate in theology. Bart D. Ehrman tells us this is now the prevailing view among NT scholars.

Modern scholars recognize a fair chunk of the synoptic gospels as the authentic teaching of Jesus, namely the prophecies of the end, the parables and the moral teaching such as the sermon on the mount. These are all connected. The parables all convey a sense of urgency. Be watchful, for the end could come at any time. One good example is the parable of the ten bridesmaids, half of whom are prepared with extra oil, and half of whom have no oil for their lamps.

I've mentioned in a previous post the extreme nature of Jesus' moral teaching. Take no thought for the morrow, sell all that you have and give it to the poor, if someone steals your coat, give him your cloak also. These commands are all impractical for getting through a lifetime, but they make perfect sense if the end is nigh.

I have a theory as to why the history of the church has been one long succession of mistaken prophecies of the end. Jesus was very sincere and spoke with urgency and was also a master of rhetoric. The believer reads his words and responds to them, but Jesus is now acknowledged as divine. It never occurs to the pious disciple that Jesus could have made a mistake and so he applies the urgent prophecy to his own time and then engages in a weird numerological game with various bible passages to seek confirmation.
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people — House
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RE: the so fallible Bible
(October 21, 2013 at 8:24 am)John V Wrote:
(October 21, 2013 at 8:24 am)John V Wrote: People do insane things. I've heard many atheists say that they wouldn't worship the god of the Bible even if given sufficient evidence of his existence. I believe them. Would that be insane?
No answer on this?

Really? You couldn't figure out that atheists say that because their sense of right and wrong finds god's behavior deplorable?
I don't think anyone has proposed that Adam and Eve "chose" death because they found god to be a despicable monster -- But I like that thinking!
Find the cure for Fundementia!
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RE: the so fallible Bible
(October 21, 2013 at 12:26 pm)Brakeman Wrote: Really? You couldn't figure out that atheists say that because their sense of right and wrong finds god's behavior deplorable?
I understand that. But that means that either such people are insane, or your earlier argument that Adam wouldn't have (sanely) willfully accepted the consequences of rebellion to be in error.
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RE: the so fallible Bible
Sigh..
Find the cure for Fundementia!
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RE: the so fallible Bible
@xpastor:
Quote:Most NT scholars with no commitment to biblical inerrancy are confident that that the material in the synoptics about Jesus' sacrifice have been injected back into the story, especially the account of Passion Week.
Can we see the evidence for this? How were NT scholars defined? What percent of the surveys were returned?
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RE: the so fallible Bible
(October 21, 2013 at 12:26 pm)Brakeman Wrote:
(October 21, 2013 at 8:24 am)John V Wrote: No answer on this?

Really? You couldn't figure out that atheists say that because their sense of right and wrong finds god's behavior deplorable?
Exactly. If you did prove the biblical God's existence, I wouldn't worship it- I'd fight it. It isn't worthy of worship. I do believe there's another team- Satan's. But even so, I just hate a two-party system.
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RE: the so fallible Bible
(October 21, 2013 at 12:23 pm)xpastor Wrote: I have come to the last of the questions I had planned for this topic.

What is Jesus' central teaching?

I'm afraid I am woefully ignorant where the bible is concerned. I am interested in your views on these matters. The part of Christianity I have a hard time understanding is the leap to enthrone the bible as the highest authority. To my mind, the many fundamentalists who argue scripture like lawyers, have very little faith at all. They are not able to suspend disbelief in common sense without attributing an even greater certainty to the 'word'.

Hopefully someone here will engage you at your level of understanding. I'm not that person but I am happy to hear more from you. I wonder if when you lost your own faith if you were an agnostic theist for a time. It has always seemed to me to be a viable position. But I don't mean to highjack the thread unless you need something to do while you wait for more worthy responses.
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RE: the so fallible Bible
(October 21, 2013 at 8:22 pm)whateverist Wrote: I'm afraid I am woefully ignorant where the bible is concerned. I am interested in your views on these matters. The part of Christianity I have a hard time understanding is the leap to enthrone the bible as the highest authority. To my mind, the many fundamentalists who argue scripture like lawyers, have very little faith at all. They are not able to suspend disbelief in common sense without attributing an even greater certainty to the 'word'.

Hopefully someone here will engage you at your level of understanding. I'm not that person but I am happy to hear more from you. I wonder if when you lost your own faith if you were an agnostic theist for a time. It has always seemed to me to be a viable position. But I don't mean to highjack the thread unless you need something to do while you wait for more worthy responses.
To answer your question, for many years after my deconversion from Christianity I liked to think of myself as "sort of a pantheist." I wanted to believe that there is some force or "ground of being" behind the beauty and majesty of the universe, something to receive our thankfulness, maybe something we could connect with on a deeper level. I imagined this force working through the process of evolution to produce something as wonderful as a dog, but eventually I realized that this presupposed intelligent design, and as I read more about evolution, I realized that the process must be random and chaotic. So I dropped my theistic inclinations.

As a critic of religion I am especially hard on fundamentalist claims of biblical inerrancy precisely because I allowed myself to gradually slide into that position for some time. I feel ashamed of my carelessness in gliding over problems in the bible for many years, especially as I am well trained in careful reading with graduate degrees in English. When I slowed down and read the bible carefully, it was the frequent presentation of God as a moral monster that turned me off far more than the contradictions.
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people — House
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RE: the so fallible Bible
(October 21, 2013 at 12:43 pm)John V Wrote: @xpastor:
Quote:Most NT scholars with no commitment to biblical inerrancy are confident that that the material in the synoptics about Jesus' sacrifice have been injected back into the story, especially the account of Passion Week.
Can we see the evidence for this? How were NT scholars defined? What percent of the surveys were returned?
??
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