The Jesus Itinerary

[Minimalist]

They wrote independently of each other and it's obvious.

Not only independently but for different audiences.

I imagine that after the b.s. gmark came out some people started asking questions and these two pieces of shit were attempts to fill in some of the blanks for this allegedly "historical" character. Unfortunately, they each came up with different solutions.

[max-greece]

They also had to get over the problem that Mark was one of the most Jewish stories ever written. Non-jews didn't get a look-in.

[Minimalist]

Ironic since Mark ( Marcus ) was a Roman name derived from the god of war, Mars.

[DeistPaladin]

What's your support for this? (I think I know, but I'll let you make the argument.)

The Bible.

Matthew
2:1-2 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
...
2:9-11 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.
...
2:20-23 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life. And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel. But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee: And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

Now go ahead and introduce all your ad hoc explanations.

[Minimalist]

[John V]

The Bible.

Matthew
2:1-2 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
...
2:9-11 When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy. And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.
...
2:20-23 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life. And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel. But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee: And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

Now go ahead and introduce all your ad hoc explanations.

I don't need to make an explanation as you don't present an argument. You bold three words, but do nothing to establish the timeframe or that this was their house.

[DeistPaladin]

I don't need to make an explanation as you don't present an argument. You bold three words, but do nothing to establish the timeframe or that this was their house.

Prey tell then, whose house was it? Were they staying at their aunt Ruth's while stopping in Bethlehem? Why not say so, then? The Bible gives names to every minor character, including the blind beggar outside Jericho that Jesus healed (Blind Bart). Why not explain that little detail? "What, house, where'd they get that?" And if they could get a house, why did they try to stay at an inn (Luke) and ultimately end up in a manger? And why did Joseph try to return to Bethlehem at all from Egypt? Why not just go back to Nazareth if that was his home town? 2:21-22 makes no sense except that Bethlehem was Joseph's home town.

And the time-frame is set by the lives and administrations of the named rulers in the Gospel accounts.

So go ahead with your ad hocs now.

[John V]

Prey tell then, whose house was it? Were they staying at their aunt Ruth's while stopping in Bethlehem? Why not say so, then? The Bible gives names to every minor character, including the blind beggar outside Jericho that Jesus healed (Blind Bart). Why not explain that little detail? "What, house, where'd they get that?"

Seriously? Do I really need to show people who aren't named, or do you want to retract this argument?

And if they could get a house, why did they try to stay at an inn (Luke) and ultimately end up in a manger?

As I noted, you haven't done anything to establish the timeframe (relative to Luke - thought that was apparent). You're assuming this is shortly after the birth without supporting that.

[Drich]

The whole itinerary seems to be based on the idea that all four gospels are trying to recount the same events in the life of Christ. What if the gospels are not meant convey the same set of stories, but to recount the events an author was privy to?

If you read the gospels you will note one of the reasons Christ so many followers was because he had different guys doing different things at different times. No one person was privy to everything. Not even in the core 12.

[DeistPaladin]

Seriously? Do I really need to show people who aren't named, or do you want to retract this argument?

Seriously? Do I really need to show you why "It was some other person's house. What? That part of the story needs to be explained?" is bad story telling and bad apologetics? Or do you want to retract that response?

As I noted, you haven't done anything to establish the timeframe (relative to Luke - thought that was apparent). You're assuming this is shortly after the birth without supporting that.

Oh, sorry, you missed the part in Matt 2:1 about "when Jesus was born"? Sorry, I guess I just assume that when a story book says "when X happened" that the drama is set when X happened.

And even if you could support that it was long after the birth of Jesus, why were they still in Bethlehem? I thought Joseph was just reporting for the census and Mary's water broke at a bad time. What, were they hanging out and renting a house for no reason?