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The Jesus Itinerary
October 12, 2013 at 11:51 pm
I'm working on the next installment of my series, The Jesus Timeline. In the first few videos, I focused on placing the ministry of Jesus on a timeline set against the historical landmarks in the Gospels. Needless to say, it was a mess.
This video, I'm painstakingly mapping out all of the events in the Gospels and comparing them to one another.
I'm genuinely surprised as to just how bit a mess it is.
I'd thought that the Synoptics would have their story relatively straight and John's would contradict them all. I'm finishing up with Luke now and have found that all three of the so-called "synoptic" (similar) Gospels... aren't. Each one has their own order of events.
I hadn't noticed it before because all three have similar "episodes" (walking on water, etc) but the order is different for all of them.
It just gets better and better.
How did anyone EVER believe this crap?
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RE: The Jesus Itinerary
October 13, 2013 at 12:32 am
People believed anything back then. And unfortunately, they still do. There's a sucker born every minute.
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.”
- Buddha
"Anyone wanting to believe Jesus lived and walked as a real live human being must do so despite the evidence, not because of it."
- Dennis McKinsey
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RE: The Jesus Itinerary
October 13, 2013 at 12:57 am
(This post was last modified: October 13, 2013 at 1:03 am by Vincenzo Vinny G..)
The video intro is long and overdrawn. It's longer than intros for epic movies for Zeussakes!
I wish there was a way to fast-forward and just get to the discrepancies. I'm more interested in those than sitting through the long drawn out statements of things I already agree with.
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RE: The Jesus Itinerary
October 13, 2013 at 1:01 am
(October 13, 2013 at 12:57 am)Vincenzo "Vinny" G. Wrote: The intro is long and overdrawn. It's longer than intros for epic movies for Zeussakes!
I wish there was a way to fast-forward and just get to the discrepancies. I'm more interested in those than sitting through the long drawn out statements of things I already agree with.
I'm quite certain the OP will keep your reading preferences in mind the next time he creates a thread.
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RE: The Jesus Itinerary
October 13, 2013 at 1:09 am
Quote:How did anyone EVER believe this crap?
They were threatened with death. Remarkably effective.
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RE: The Jesus Itinerary
October 13, 2013 at 4:09 am
Its not really relevant to your timeline but I wonder did you keep track of how many times Jesus had to take a break? I recall when reading Mark it seemed to be after each and every activity he needed to rest.
Never come across a less active Messiah. Lazy Jesus!
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RE: The Jesus Itinerary
October 13, 2013 at 10:41 am
(October 13, 2013 at 4:09 am)max-greece Wrote: Never come across a less active Messiah. Lazy Jesus!
Following the child-prodigy story in Luke (Jesus teaching in the temple at 12), Luke had this to say in conclusion before transitioning to the adult Jesus:
Quote:Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Sounds nice and all if you're writing about a being separate from and subordinate to God. If Jesus is supposed to BE God incarnate, how to you increase in wisdom, never mind favor with yourself?
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... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: The Jesus Itinerary
October 13, 2013 at 11:18 am
(This post was last modified: October 13, 2013 at 11:20 am by Doubting Thomas.)
I thought the Jesus itinerary would go something like this:
Thursday
8 PM: Supper with homies
8:30: Hang out in garden
9 PM: Get betrayed by Judas and arrested by the high priests
9:30: Meeting with high priests
Friday
8 AM: Meeting with Pontious Pilate
8:30: Court hearing
9:AM: Meeting with S&M specialists in courtyard
9:30: Pick up cross
10 AM: Die in agony for sins of all mankind
10:01: Take rest of day off
Saturday
Day off to rest
Sunday
Move in with Dad
Christian apologetics is the art of rolling a dog turd in sugar and selling it as a donut.
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RE: The Jesus Itinerary
October 13, 2013 at 12:11 pm
OK, here's my findings from re-reading the synoptic Gospels again and this time putting all the events on a spreadsheet, placing the major episodes in order of one another.
Birth of Jesus
Matt and Luke are the only Gospels that tell us anything of Jesus' birth or childhood. They wrote independently of each other and it's obvious. The nativity story told at Christmas time is a sloppy amalgamation of the two.
In Matthew, Jesus' family lives in their house in Bethlehem. Jesus is born there, visited by Wise Men and then the family has to flee to Egypt to escape Herod the Great. All this happens before 4 BCE. They later come back to Judea but can't return to Joseph's home town because Herod's son is just as bad, so they instead settle in a new home in Nazareth.
In Luke, Jesus' family lives in Nazareth. Jesus is born in a manger in Bethlehem because Joseph and Mary had to go there for a highly unlikely census. They're visited by shepherds. All this happens after 6 CE. After performing the rites for a newborn at the temple, they return to their home in Nazareth.
Baptism of Jesus
All three Synoptics agree that John the Baptist puts himself down and denies he's the messiah, that he is instead merely a forerunner for Jesus. Oddly enough, his followers stubbornly continued to regard him as the messiah, being rivals with the early Christians. Could it all just be propaganda, an attempt to incorporate the icons of a rival religion, like Islam does to Jesus?
John baptizes Jesus in all three Gospel accounts, though he becomes increasingly submissive in later versions of the story. A booming voice is heard when the Heavens open up and The Holy Spirit descends upon Jesus. What that voice said and who it was talking to depends on which version you read. Now, I know details will vary in different eye-witness accounts but you'd think if a booming voice from the sky spoke, people would get that detail straight.
Jesus goes immediately into the wilderness for 40 days in all three synoptics, though this contradicts John who has Jesus spend the next three days gathering disciples and attending a wedding.
Ministry of Jesus
OK, here's where it gets interesting and I only discovered this when placing the events on a spreadsheet.
Over the course of his ministry, there are 42 "episodes" that are shared by at least two of the Gospels, most of them by all three. These episodes include such events as him walking on water or calming a storm, or famous things he said like "render unto Caesar".
Of these, 22 of these episodes are in jumbled order.
For example, in Luke, the "Rejected In His Home Town" happens at the start of his ministry. In Mark or Matthew, this episode happens almost mid-way through the ministry, after the "She's Sleeping" (Jairus' daughter resurrected) episode.
In Matthew, "She's Sleeping" happens before "Who Is My Mother?" but Mark and Luke disagree, saying these episodes are in reverse order.
On the 20 episodes where the order is agreed upon, two of them significant details differ. In the episode "Herod Antipas Comments", Mark has Herod asking "is this JtB raised?". In Matthew, Herod declares "This IS JtB raised!" In Luke, Herod hears "some say" that this is JtB raised. In "Road to Jerico", Jesus heals Bart the Blind Begger in Mark, two blind beggers in Matthew and an unnamed blind begger in Luke.
By my count, this leaves 18 episodes related similarly and in the right order, roughly a 43% rate of agreement.
This is what passes in Christianity for "Synoptic" (similar).
Rise and Fall in Jerusalem
The order of events is fairly consistent in the three Synoptics on Jesus' triumphant entry into Jerusalem followed by his fall, trial and crucifixion. The episode "God Hates Figs" happens after "Temple Tantrum" in Matthew but before in Mark.
There is some discrepancy in the details of the episode, "Triumph At Jerusalem". Jesus rides into Jerusalem on a colt in Mark and Luke but on a colt and an ass, rodeo style in Matthew. In "Trial of the Century", Mark and Matthew have Jesus tried by first the priests and then Pilate. In Luke, it gets more complicated as Jesus is also sent to Herod Antipas and back again. In "Crucifixion", Jesus' last words are "Why have you foresaken me?" in Mark and Matthew but "Into your hands I commend my spirit" in Luke.
Resurrection
If there was relative agreement between the Synoptics on the Jerusalem part of his life, this harmony falls apart in relative how Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into the sky. Was it still dark or at sunrise when the women came to the tomb? Was the stone rolled away or not? How many angels were there and where?
In sum, I was really surprised as to how little agreement there was even between the "Synoptic Gospels".
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... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
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... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: The Jesus Itinerary
October 13, 2013 at 12:49 pm
(October 13, 2013 at 12:11 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: OK, here's my findings from re-reading the synoptic Gospels again and this time putting all the events on a spreadsheet, placing the major episodes in order of one another.
Birth of Jesus
Matt and Luke are the only Gospels that tell us anything of Jesus' birth or childhood. They wrote independently of each other and it's obvious. The nativity story told at Christmas time is a sloppy amalgamation of the two.
In Matthew, Jesus' family lives in their house in Bethlehem. What's your support for this? (I think I know, but I'll let you make the argument.)
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