Replacing Religious Morality

[MitchBenn]

Amazing how clever de-nihilists can be trying to justify morality within an indifferent amoral materiel universe. Although it has been fun reading your little circle jerk.

At least we HAVE morality. You have no morals at all. You have a LIST, and you call that morality.

And why the hell not! By rendering yourself the unthinking slave of the Sky-Fuhrer you've absolved yourself of ever taking responsibility for your own actions! So much easier that way.

Surrendering your own moral judgment in favour of unreasoning obedience - or what religion defines as "morality" - is not just Not Moral, it's IMMORAL. It's lazy and cowardly.

Unless of course you're NOT a mindless instrument of divine justice... Unless, as many of the theists here contend, you WOULDN'T happily murder an innocent on divine command, in which you are NOT deriving your morals from God after all, since you're using those morals to assess God's actions. God can't be the source of your morals AND subject to them.

So where are you getting your morals from?

Same place I get mine.

Humans have an innate sense of fairness - it's been observed in other primates as well - and the ability to apply that notion of fairness to others as well as ourselves.

That's morality. It's simple.

Some people don't get this concept for clinical reasons. We call them psychopaths. Others get it but choose not to care. We call them Bad People.

Morality is pretty straightforward when you look at it. It only gets complicated when archaic mores and traditions, which have nothing to do with morality (Don't be gay! Don't disrespect my beliefs, even if they're ludicrous and offensive! Lock up your women! Cut babies' genitals off!) have to be factored into a hitherto simple equation.

Embrace your humanity. Ditch your list and try real morality. Join us.

[Ryantology]

Amazing how clever de-nihilists can be trying to justify morality within an indifferent amoral materiel universe. Although it has been fun reading your little circle jerk.

We could simply make up a stupidly fictional character and say that he's the source of our morality so that we can pretend that counts as legitimate justification, but that requires a level of fucking ignorant and dishonest slimebaggery reserved only for Christians.

Also, very clever calling us nihilists when you are a member of a death cult looking forward to the end of the world.

[Neo-Scholastic]

...you are a member of a death cult looking forward to the end of the world.

It already happened on June 12, 1757.

[kılıç_mehmet]

To replace a religious moral system, you must provide the people with a better moral system.
In truth, the only moral systems I believe that can work are morals based on national traditons, which might or might not include secular viewpoints aswell, but they must appeal to the people. Not to the desires of a few fringe groups that want their anti-social views and lifestyles to be protected by a "new morality" that is baseless.

[Simsim]

I I gave up on the belief in God based on an All-loving God and eternal damnation being unable to rationally coexist.

You gave up on this belief not only because it contradicts your rationality but also because it contradicts your morality. So, as you see, morality is always there to the extent that it is stronger and deeper than religion.

OK, after you had lost your supposed theoretical source of morals (God), Were you able to steal or kill?? In this topic you don't, in fact, look for morals motivations but for morals justifications and interpretations.

[henryp]

You gave up on this belief not only because it contradicts your rationality but also because it contradicts your morality. So, as you see, morality is always there to the extent that it is stronger and deeper than religion.

OK, after you had lost your supposed theoretical source of morals (God), Were you able to steal or kill?? In this topic you don't, in fact, look for morals motivations but for morals justifications and interpretations.

1) God chose to create people he says would be better off never having been created.

That's not a moral judgement. It's a logical paradox. I like to think I'm being objective. It's the kind of thing you can draw up with if A then B, and whatnot.

2) While God is the justification for my morality, God is far from the only source of my behavioral conditioning. Society, parents, teachers, evolution, genetic predispositions, and a wide variety of other things.

The catch of course, is that God has a genuine claim to authority over my behavior. The rest of those things are just conditioning that has been bludgeoned into our heads since we were 2. That's where stepping back and attempting to be objective comes in.

Murder-who knows? Society covered that one with jail. In that I really don't want to go. Stealing-again jail has it covered pretty good. Although, in scenarios where I'm not in danger of repercussions, illegal streaming and downloading being the easy example, I gladly participate.

But to go from decades of being taught one thing, to completely about facing, particularly while living in a society that still is pushing that idea is going to be tough. Take us out of our comfort zone, maybe things change. It's not a mistake poor people are much bigger on stealing and murdering eachother. Or that powerful people use stealing and murdering to maintain their power. But a middle class american with a mortgage and family, Murder and serious theft carry to many practical consequences for me to consider it.

But what about things with no practical consequences!? The biggest change I've been able to enact, is that I no longer care about people I'm not invested in. I've always been empathetic, in that I'm good at understanding what other people are going through. But I'm no longer sympathetic. I know it's terrible for the people in the Philippines to be smashed to bits by a typhoon, but I have no qualms about doing absolutely nothing to help them, because I just don't care if they live, die, or suffer.

Maybe I'm just a crazy sociopath. But when you look around the world, at the behaviors of people, I think that perhaps that's what most people are, and society/evolution/tradition has worked very hard into tricking them into believing they are not/shouldn't want to be one.


tldr: I'm trying to be objective. I no longer operate based on "Morality." I now operate based on practicalities and maximizing my own personal interests. I don't do things because I think they are 'good' as an absolute, but because they are objectively positive in regards to my own interests.

[Neo-Scholastic]

1) God chose to create people he says would be better off never having been created...It's a logical paradox.

That's an excellent way of pointing out the absurdity of some atheist's arguments.

...God has a genuine claim to authority over my behavior. The rest of those things are just conditioning...Murder...covered that one with jail...Murder and serious theft carry to many practical consequences for me to consider it.

You have correctly identified the difference between a natural and spiritual avoidance of evil. To avoid evil because you fear punishment or loss of reputation is to be good out of self interest, or love of self. If your actions are informed by love of self you steer your course towards Hell.

To avoid evil because it is sin, "missing the mark", comes from love of the Lord and love of neighbor as self. This sets you on a course to Heaven.

Maybe I'm just a crazy sociopath.

No. You are being honest about the logical consequences of atheism. Congratulations on avoiding the delusions of your compatriots.

[henryp]

...

A separate discussion....

You seem to agree with my opinion of a vast dichotomy in logical behavior in a world with and without a God. With eternal salvation on the line, and no rational way to hedge your bets, do you think it's odd that God would be so coy in regards to his existence?

I think a lot of people treat 'belief' as a choice. But it's not really. We've got the input, our brain crunches the data, and we spit out a result. I'm certain there is no God, and am attempting to live accordingly.

Let's pretend there is a God, and I'm just plain wrong. Is that my fault, or His? Particularly when he could have just popped his head in a window like he used to do for the old-timey folks and say "Nope, I'm real. Sorry for the confusion."

Even if I were going the agnostic route, we both agree it's an impossible position to take. There is no 'maybe there is a God' way to live. Asking for certainty in what for many people is a guess at best seems like a bizarre system, no?

[Neo-Scholastic]

You seem to agree with my opinion of a vast dichotomy in logical behavior in a world with and without a God.

I do, thank you.

With eternal...do you think it's odd that God would be so coy in regards to his existence?

I consider God's existence to be pretty obvious.

I'm certain there is no God, and am attempting to live accordingly.

Certainty can be elusive. I go with what I consider reasonable. Even though I think God's role in the world is fairly obvious, I can and do still have my doubts.

Is that my fault, or His? Particularly when he could have just popped his head in a window like he used to do for the old-timey folks and say "Nope, I'm real. Sorry for the confusion."

It would be your fault, because He did come into human history to "say hi".

Even if I were going the agnostic route, we both agree it's an impossible position to take. There is no 'maybe there is a God' way to live.

I cannot say that I agree, because I don't really understand what you mean. Could you expand on this idea a bit.

[Ryantology]

To avoid evil because you fear punishment or loss of reputation is to be good out of self interest, or love of self. If your actions are informed by love of self you steer your course towards Hell.

This makes a mockery of the entire idea of Christian salvation. To avoid evil for selfish reasons is repeatedly and expressly encouraged throughout the entire Bible with every single one of its hundreds? thousands? of threats of punishment. Not to mention all the promises of rewards you get for doing what you're told, like everlasting life.

It seems as though it's intentionally set up so that you fail, keeping with the spirit of Old Testament laws that were designed to make it impossible to not sin. Of all the Bible's contradictions, this is by far the most profound. How do you even begin to reconcile it?