Tell Me Again Why....

[Raven]

Geopolitics is the why of it. US has never cared how barbaric anyone is so long as you cooperate. Iran's Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was a real mensch, no matter what his Savac did to the citizenry, because he kissed Washington's ass. That's how it has always been. Morally reprehensible? Of course it is. But Realpolitik could not care less about such trifles, it appears to be pragmatic, and that is what counts.

Sickening, isn't it?

[Psykhronic]

Geopolitics is the why of it. US has never cared how barbaric anyone is so long as you cooperate. Iran's Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi was a real mensch, no matter what his Savac did to the citizenry, because he kissed Washington's ass. That's how it has always been. Morally reprehensible? Of course it is. But Realpolitik could not care less about such trifles, it appears to be pragmatic, and that is what counts.

Sickening, isn't it?

Yeah, I know it's horrible. I read Persepolis recently and the graphic novel went over some of Iran's history. I've also taken a course on Latin American History - same old shit from America, I swear to fucking GOD, America. But yeah, gruesome shit D: in any case, I find the geopolitics of 'why' we are there to be more relevant to this thread than defending Islam.

[Brian37]

The stoning to death punishment existed way before Islam - it was a Jewish law, as dictated in the Old Testament.

The Prophet Muhammad continued implementing that law until a new revelation came regarding the punishment for adultery, which is now 100 lashes for both male and female. The Quran doesn't say anything about stoning the adulterers at all. The punishment is 100 lashes, and there has to be at least 4 witnesses who saw the act in order to implement a lashing (which is extremely unlikely to happen), OR that the adulterers confessed their sin to someone (which they shouldn't), but if neither of those conditions are met, then the lashing punishment cannot be enforced if even they are actually guilty of adultery.

And the punishment for a slave girl is half of that punishment (per Surah 4:25) - which is 50 lashes - so it wouldn't make sense to say that slave girls should get "half the punishment of stoning to death" if stoning was really the punishment prescribed by the Quran. What could be "half" the punishment of stoning to death?

Most Muslims and the majority of scholars do believe that stoning for adultery is a part of Shariah (I used to believe that also), but they support that opinion by citing only 3 or 4 hadiths, where the Prophet himself ordered to carry out the punishment after the adulterers confessed their sins to him. However, those hadiths do not tell us whether or not the stoning punishments took place before or after the Quranic revelations on adultery. So, it is very much possible that the stoning law may have been abrogated after the Quranic verses on adultery were revealed.

Also, a lot Muslims argue that the lashing punishment is for unmarried adulterers only, and that the stoning punishment is for married adulterers. But the Quran simply says that the punishment of lashing is for both a "man" and a "woman" who have been proven to commit adultery (by 4 witnesses), and thus the punishment can apply to any man or a woman regardless of whether they are married or unmarried.

Such a dangerous punishment (stoning to death) would have been mentioned in the Quran if that is really the punishment in Islam, anyways. And it doesn't seem logical to me that the Quran would include so many lesser punishments (100 lashes, 50 lashes, 80 lashes, cutting off hands, etc.) and leave out the greatest and the most severe punishment of all (stoning), which we should be most aware of.

This is what I hate about my well intended friends on the left, especially atheists who blast me for agreeing with Hitchens and Harris. Hitchens calls relgiion poison and Harris says moderates and liberals allow the nuts to fester and grow because of their sense of "political correctness".

Skip the damned labels, this guy is doing no different than the current Pope is doing. You have to water down the holy book. It should not matter if barbarity was in the original language ON ANY ISSUE, or if it was twisted after the fact. If there were no comic book to even imply or suggest what to do, there would be nothing to argue over.

Just like you can use a gun as a cop or a criminal, no gun, no chance of a fight over it and no chance of someone getting shot with it.

It seems the best humanity can do right now is water religion down, and out of all the evils, I'd prefer that because I do think the zealots are actually reading the book correctly compared to the moderates and liberals. Holy books are designed to produce loyalty and conformity, not pluralism.

[WesOlsen]

The stoning to death punishment existed way before Islam - it was a Jewish law, as dictated in the Old Testament.

The Prophet Muhammad continued implementing that law until a new revelation came regarding the punishment for adultery, which is now 100 lashes for both male and female.

So god did one bout of revelations, then came back and did another one because presumably he changed his mind or got it wrong the first time? I'm glad that the western world has abolished what is essentially extreme physical torture. You proudly pronounce that lashing is a legitemate form of punishment whereas stoning is something that you'd prefer to distance yourself from. Both are barbaric.

The Quran doesn't say anything about stoning the adulterers at all. The punishment is 100 lashes, and there has to be at least 4 witnesses who saw the act in order to implement a lashing (which is extremely unlikely to happen), OR that the adulterers confessed their sin to someone (which they shouldn't), but if neither of those conditions are met, then the lashing punishment cannot be enforced if even they are actually guilty of adultery.

And the punishment for a slave girl is half of that punishment (per Surah 4:25) - which is 50 lashes - so it wouldn't make sense to say that slave girls should get "half the punishment of stoning to death" if stoning was really the punishment prescribed by the Quran. What could be "half" the punishment of stoning to death?

So we've got an appeal for witnesses as perscribed in 5th century desert conditions, which have next to no relevance to modern day urban living spaces outside of the desert. Either way, as absurd as the entire qu'ranic discourse is, this is still barbaric tosh whichever way you look at it. What's that bit about the slave girl again? Any condemnation of slavery in the qu'ran or do you believe that slavery is not only authorised but that slaves should only be tortured half as bad as non slaves?

... which is why people feel less afraid committing those graver crimes.


Prisons don't work too well either.

If you're trying to imply that the threat of barbaric punishments will deter crime then you're completely wrong. I see you cited a bbc article regarding how prisons don't work. Many people who acknowledge that re-offending rates are so high (in many parts of the east and west) propose that prison shouldn't be about punishment at all, but more about rehabilitation. There are still many countries that impose barbaric torture techniques and even the death penalty, especially muslim countries, yet they do not deter crime at all. In fact, the correlation between tough penal systems with crime rates + inequality is staggering. You should read the spirit level by Richard Wilkinson, although this would mean opening your mind to sources outside of Islam. Either way, the threat of brutal torture doesn't stop crime at all, and in many cases the countries that impose such disgusting punishments as lashing and stoning are amongst the most miserable and corrupt on the planet.

Any way, relying on one poorly cobbled together collection of desert ramblings for 'rules' on punishments and law is truly depressing. Only through the wisdom of collected works, democracy, pluralism and pragmatism can law really begin to approach anything that could constitute being 'just'. Relying on centuries old hearsay from some desert brutes is beyond ridiculous. Islam is beyond ridiculous.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

... which is why people feel less afraid committing those graver crimes.


Prisons don't work too well either.

If you're trying to imply that the threat of barbaric punishments will deter crime then you're completely wrong. I see you cited a bbc article regarding how prisons don't work. Many people who acknowledge that re-offending rates are so high (in many parts of the east and west) propose that prison shouldn't be about punishment at all, but more about rehabilitation. There are still many countries that impose barbaric torture techniques and even the death penalty, especially muslim countries, yet they do not deter crime at all. In fact, the correlation between tough penal systems with crime rates + inequality is staggering. You should read the spirit level by Richard Wilkinson, although this would mean opening your mind to sources outside of Islam. Either way, the threat of brutal torture doesn't stop crime at all, and in many cases the countries that impose such disgusting punishments as lashing and stoning are amongst the most miserable and corrupt on the planet.

Completely agree.

Besides, if prison isn't working, then the answer is to evaluate and reform. It's difficult to imagine how one can reform the process of stoning/lashing someone for a crime.

And as you rightly say, extreme punishments like that very rarely (if ever) act as a deterrent.

[WesOlsen]

Besides, if prison isn't working, then the answer is to evaluate and reform. It's difficult to imagine how one can reform the process of stoning/lashing someone for a crime.

And as you rightly say, extreme punishments like that very rarely (if ever) act as a deterrent.

Reform? That would mean changing the word of god almighty which can never be changed, you SILLY BILLY

[Minimalist]

The Prophet Muhammad continued implementing that law until a new revelation came regarding the punishment for adultery

Maybe you should book a flight to Kabul and tell them the news.

Remember to duck if they start picking up rocks.

[Sleepy]

Adulterers are parasites upon society. As are thieves. An adulterer is a deceptive person by nature.

[Minimalist]

Thanks for your input.

Kindly go blow your barbaric religion out your ass.

[Sleepy]

Islam is the religion of humanity. Barbarianism is against Islam. I suggest you jump off the liberal train because it's at a dead end.