Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?

[Bad Wolf]

What is your definition of conscious?

[bennyboy]

The same argument has been made for slavery. Have you asked the animals how THEY feel

Have you?

Could I have sex with a mute girl, on the grounds she couldn't verbalize her lack of complicity? Could I bring home a bush man to be my slave, on the grounds that he didn't tell me in English that he didn't want to do it? No. If I'm unable to get a POSITIVE statement of permission, then I have to assume any act that affects the wellbeing of another is going to be unwanted.

about being locked up, force-fed and killed at the height of their health? Consider the possibility that there's a serious conflict of interest involved, in having people who want to eat animals being the sole determiners of the morality of doing so.

Would you still feel that way if the choice wasn't yours? What, for example, if the government decided 70 years is old enough, and a team of qualified professionals threw you onto a truck for your "painless euthanasia " against your will?

Not a valid comparison at all. You are talking about animals like they are humans. Like they understand what is going on around them. As if they have the power of humans to infer and imagine from what is happening around them. To feel fear and apprehension. The truth is, they are ignorant of that. And ignorance is bliss.

I don't know what animals feel, or other people for that matter. I know what I feel, and I look to other organisms for similarity. I'm a person, and so the similarities to other people, I assume, are very high: I believe most people feel as I do, fear (for the most part) pain and death, etc. Mammals and birds have similar brain function, and behave in recognizable enough ways, that I can infer their feelings about many things, as well.

Cows obviously are not going to get into a tormented state because of upcoming finals or something. But it's obvious that mammals and birds, at least, can experience pain and fear. They breathe heavily, get wild-looking eyes, and if able to move, will avoid things they find unpleasant or threatening. I've seen pigs', cows' and birds' behavior alter when they are in situations I would find stressful (like being led into an enclosed space, or being hit), and so I find it most likely that they are actually experiencing stress, i.e. they are suffering.

I don't see how a sensible person, with knowledge of the human and non-human mammal brains' similarities, or experience with a pet or with farm animals, could see it any other way.

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Are you arguing against the mistreatment of animals on factory farms or against killing animals at all?

They are not the same thing.

And your vision of happy animals in the wild is not accurate.
Their lives can be nasty, brutish, and short; their deaths are usually violent.

Nature is cruel. People can choose not to be-- it is not necessary for us to deputize ourselves as the species embodiment of that violence.

We build giant buildings towering into the air, trains that can run at hundreds of miles per hour, and computer systems that can hold the entire text of all books written during all time.

But when it comes to eating meat, suddenly nature is nature, and there's nothing to be done about it.

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Secondly, I would argue that life on a farm is far worse. At least in the wild I have a rich and complex environment to explore. On a farm it its monotonous, with every single young animal forcibly removed from its mother. Overfed and over weight, in a dense population were disease is easily spread. Udder infections branding, dehorning, clipping of the chickens beak. Its a horrible life. At least as a wild animals I have a chance.

You have clearly anthropomorphised animals. You are in no position at all to argue this argument.

Lastly, you say that your obsession with meat is not an obsession because it is natural and normal. Sounds like two fallacies in one sentence. Appeal to the people, and to nature.

You are just being dense now. Does the chimpanzee have an obsession with meat because it can eat both meat and plants but sometimes chooses to eat meat? What about the brown bear?
They are omnivores because they require both meat and plant matter. A human is also an omnivore, meaning that eating meat is completely natural and not an obsession, we evolved to do this. A human with an obsession over meat would probably only eat meat..... in fact, I don't even know what an obsession with meat would look like? It is very clear that you have an obsession, of what, i don't know yet.

wtf?

I didn't say any of those things. I prefer you quote things I've actually said.

[James2014]

What is your definition of conscious?

Consciousness for me is awareness that results from the binding together of sensory inputs to create one single experience and cognitive representation of the world. For example, the nematode worm can learn to make simple associations, an odour or a light can be presented with an electric shock such that the animal can learn that the odour signals they are about to be shocked.

However, when multiple stimuli are paired together, for example an odour only signalling they are about to get shocked when it is also light, they cannot learn this. They cannot bind together different sensory modalities (in this case the ability to smell and the ability to detect light).

Rats and Mice on the other hand, can do this, they have episodic memory, the ability to remember the what where and when of events. Their experiences are bound together to allow them to create new representations of the world. Emotions are further bound up within this stream of awareness so that distress can result in a more "pessimistic" representation. Together this means that animals have consciousness and experience suffering.

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1.Humans are conscious and can suffer
2. Causing suffering is wrong
3. Shooting humans causes people to suffer
Therefore war is wrong.

Yet we still keep killing people for our country


Ok, so from the way you talks you must not own a pet. Or at least a dog or cat.
Dogs are carnivores. We own them and must give them food. Most dogs, like wolves, do best on raw meat. Most dogs don't know how to hunt. So to prevent the animal from starving to death we have to kill another to feed it.
Is it wrong to kill one animal to help another? This animal that we kill will most likely get a bolt to the head(here in the USA). A quick death(also nerves of a dead animal can still have reactions long after they die. Meaning their muscles still move. This happens even with euthanasia drugs) . It will then be processed or cut up.Then fed to dog.

How is that any different the a person eating the animal?

Yep, war is wrong, killing people is wrong, do we disagree with this? Sure it might be justified under exceptional circumstances, eg it self defence, but the principle generally holds true

I don't think we should keep carnivores as pets. It s possible to feed carnivores a vegan diet with the appropriate understanding of their physiological needs, and their are vegan dog foods out there. Unfortunately though, there is little research to show how effective and safe it is. No money in it sadly.

One could argue that because dogs require meat, unlike humans, that feeding it to them is justified. This argument is stronger when considering dogs that have been abandoned etc., less so when considering people deliberately breed them.

Oh yes, you mentioned that kill animals with a bolt is painless? In fact research shows this is frequently not effective, with 8% of cattle(15% for young bulls) showing signs of consciousness http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...4007001544

[Aractus]

Herbivores do not eat meat (obviously) so how come that their flesh is full of B12?

Bacteria in their digestive systems produce it.

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1. Please provide a link to a study that shows vegans have a shorter life expectancy. The study I provided is widely regarded by nutritionists as the best study going. Give it a read. The evidence speaks for itself, and it is why the NHS and the ADS say that being vegans are healthy. If vegans are so deficient then why do the vegans in the study I adventist study live longer than meat eaters?

If that's regarded as the best study going then you've just admitted that you have nothing. SDA's that are vegetarian are also non-smokers, AND non-drinkers, AND do not take recreational drugs. About 50% of SDA's are vegetarian. SDA's that are not vegetarian also smoke and drink - the study has not isolated people who's sole lifestyle difference is meat and/or meat products, thus the study cannot make any conclusions based on these criteria.

2. If a well planned vegan diet is protein deficient, and causes illness in people, then provide a study showing that this is the case

Don't twist my words, it irritates me. I said you don't get any animal protein, and that it's not found in plants. Simple.

3. you do realise that all people do when they process food is to cook multiple ingredients to make a meal right? its not some type of magical process. Processed food can be unhealthy if too much fat, sugar or salt is added, but then so is food cooked at home. Fundamentally there is no difference between a processed food (eg a microwave pasta meal) and one you cooked at home. Processing food means exactly the same thing as cooking it.

Again, I have not been saying that processed foods are "healthy" or "unhealthy". Processed foods are pre-prepared foods. Yes if you cook yourself a casserole to reheat later that would qualify as a processed food, however you well know this isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about pre-packaged processed foods that are processed before you buy the food.

[James2014]

If that's regarded as the best study going then you've just admitted that you have nothing. SDA's that are vegetarian are also non-smokers, AND non-drinkers, AND do not take recreational drugs. About 50% of SDA's are vegetarian. SDA's that are not vegetarian also smoke and drink - the study has not isolated people who's sole lifestyle difference is meat and/or meat products, thus the study cannot make any conclusions based on these criteria.

The study choose Adventists because they all live such similar lives, ie not smoking, not drinking, not taking drugs! If you were to design a study you would want to ensure that all variables were the same except for the one you were wanting to study. Get it?

Think about it this way. In these Adventists if they are vegan they live longer. Now what else could be causing this? As you say, they don't drink, they don't smoke, they don't take recreational drugs. What are we left with? Many Adventists are vegan, many are also meat eaters, vegetarian or piscetarian. Vegans live longer. simple.

As it says in the study "Strengths of this study include the large number of participants consuming various vegetarian diets; the diverse nature of this cohort in terms of sex, race, geography, and socioeconomic status, enhancing generalizability; the low use of tobacco and alcohol, making residual confounding from these unlikely; the shared religious affiliation of the cohort, which may lead to greater homogeneity across several possible unmeasured confounders, enhancing internal validity; and precise dietary pattern definitions based on measured food intake rather than self-identification of dietary patterns."

Don't twist my words, it irritates me. I said you don't get any animal protein, and that it's not found in plants. Simple.

Yep no animal protein. So what? If this causes any unhealth in vegans who eat a well planned diet then provide a link showing this to be true.

[Aractus]

Think about it this way. In these Adventists if they are vegan they live longer. Now what else could be causing this? As you say, they don't drink, they don't smoke, they don't take recreational drugs. What are we left with? Many Adventists are vegan, many are also meat eaters, vegetarian or piscetarian. Vegans live longer. simple.

IF that's what they found, which I doubt, then all it means is they found correlation not causation.

[James2014]

IF that's what they found, which I doubt, then all it means is they found correlation not causation.

That's is entirely possible, confounding factors will always be present to some extent. But all I need to prove my point is that a vegan diet does not so impact our health so much that it reduces life expectancy below that expected with a omnivorous diet. This study without a doubt proves this.

[là bạn điên]

You fail at Biology forever.

I think I can now see why La Ban got so frustrated at you all that he resorted to insults, its just the banality of evil, its infuriating. You can do better than this.

No, They can;t do better than this. These are people who can be quite logical when attacking Christians but behave just like Christians when they defend their abuse of animals. They use every possible non sequiter.
Obviously other than arctus who is a Christian and just pushes nonsense about 'Quality proteins'. He actually thinks animal proteins are made of different substance than vegetable proteins he REALLY is that uneducated.

[James2014]

Obviously other than arctus who is a Christian and just pushes nonsense about 'Quality proteins'. He actually thinks animal proteins are made of different substance than vegetable proteins he REALLY is that uneducated.

[Anomalocaris]

Ahh, no, he is well informed in this case, you are the REALLY presumptuously ignorant one. There are enormous numbers of different proteins. Proteins differ by more than just their ingredients. They also differ by their sizes and shapes. In fact every specie of animal and plants have some protein that is unique to that species. There is likely unique proteins difference even amongst members of same species. On the whole there are specific proteins as well as families of proteins that characterizes each taxonomic group at each level of life on earth. The reason why different DNA can lead to different species is precisely through the mechanism of generating unique, species specific proteins. Which proteins it actually is, not just what substance the proteins is made of, is also decisively important to how your body might deal with it after ingesting it. That's why there is such a thing as animal protein in dietary requirement. That's also why eating some things can get you sick, and other proteins can get you mad cow disease.