Any Vegetarians/Vegans here?

[bennyboy]

JG, soy is toxic to humans and other animals. It's not a natural product at all and I don't know why you're appealing to it.

Furthermore, those with allergies against soy products as I've mentioned earlier cannot eat (almost) any processed foods - 1. because soy is added to most processed foods and 2. because it doesn't have to be labelled and they have to make the assumption that unless otherwise stated it contains soy.

So no, you cannot use soy as an example because you only find it in processed foods and if you ate it raw you'd be sick.

Can you give me a guarantee that soy is safe or healthy? No you can't. No one can. We might well find in the years to come that soy is looked down upon as a filthy carcinogen, the fact of the matter is that at the moment ignorance is bliss and just like the tobacco industry, the food industry isn't exactly wanting to find out that soy is a bad product.

If you have an ethical responsibility when it comes to food it is to: eat healthy. All other considerations, environmental, animal welfare, etc, are secondary concerns nothing should come before your own health when it comes to food.

I don't think so. Tofu has been consumed for many centuries, and soya milk for many decades at least. There have a been a few claims that consumption of very great amounts of soy products have led to feminization in men (which reverted when the products were stopped). However, there have been many MORE issues with milk allergies, with hormones fed to milk cows or meat animals, etc.

This kind of hysterical appeal to ignorance can be applied to absolutely any food or product except maybe fresh water-- Google "______ made me sick," and you'll find some cases of people who react aversely to broccoli, spinach, and apples. But taking those anecdotes and trying to generalize them to an idea like "We should eat meat, and not broccoli," would be irrational and wrong.

[No_God]

Once you use something that is not in your nature for long time you tend to make an habit of. That of course does not mean that it is normal.

Chimps are exclusively omnivores. They are classified as omnivores. According to Jane Goodall they are omnivores. Their diet mainly consists of fruits, seeds, nuts, flowers, leaves, insects, killed prey.




The Jane Goodall Institute says the following:

Chimpanzees spend about 6-8 hours a day foraging for food. Their diet includes a variety of foods such as fruits, seeds, berries, leaves, pith, barks, resins, and plants. Fruit and vegetable species make up the bulk of the chimpanzee diet while insects, bird eggs and meat from small and medium sized mammals provide additional sources of food. Among the mammal species which are hunted, killed and eaten are lizards, bushbuck and bushpigs, colobus monkeys and baboons."

It doesn't matter if meat is a secondary source of food or not. The simple fact that they hunt and kill prey to be eaten implies they are exclusively omnivores.

Since humans share 99% of their DNA with chimps it's obvious that we would be omnivores too. The Smithsonian labels the early human Ardipithecus ramidus as an omnivore. So we evolved from omnivores and like chimps, we are omnivores.

http://www.chimpanzoo.org/african_noteca...er_14.html

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/huma...us-ramidus

[KichigaiNeko]

A bit of Veg*ian humour
http://www.beyondveg.com/billings-t/vega...e-1a.shtml

---

The Raw Vegan Pledge
of Extremism, Ignorance & Denial

by Tom Billings
Copyright © 1998 by Thomas E. Billings. All rights reserved.
Contact author for permission to republish.

If you've just surfed into the Beyond Veg site and this is the first article on the site that you read, we'll give fair warning here that without a background context for the piece, you might falsely assume the Pledge is anti-vegan. (Vegans are known for--how to say it--taking their lunch far too seriously at times.) In reality, the Pledge is a call for reform in the raw vegan movement, disguised as sarcastic satire. To avoid any misunderstanding, we suggest you read through the other material pertaining to raw veganism on this site before reading the Pledge.
However, if you've already read a number of articles on the site or you're particularly adventurous, then you MAY be ready for the sarcastic humor of the Pledge. How can you tell? It's not hard: If the material on this website does NOT appeal to you; if it offends you by challenging many of the things you believe in; if it offends you by criticizing your lunch, then perhaps you should seriously consider actually TAKING the following pledge. On the other hand, if you appreciate the material on this site, you might find the lampooning here of raw vegan extremists to be very funny and "on target." Enjoy! :-)

Note: The following is intended as a sharp, sarcastic satire of the current state (1998) of extremism in the raw vegan world. If you are easily offended, you may want to skip this article.


The International
Raw Alliance of Vegan Extremists (IRAVE)
M E M B E R S H I P P L E D G E

WHEREAS:
1. The raw vegan diet is the one true religion and science of perfect health.

2. The vegan diet is based on high moral principles, particularly compassion.

3. Compassion should be promoted toward all living beings on this planet, with the obvious exception of those murderous meat-eaters and the "cooked," those who consume cooked foods. (Those who eat meat or cooked foods are degenerates, hence are "fair game" for insults, harassment, threats, and other similar forms of enlightened, compassionate interaction.)

4. The International Raw Alliance of Vegan Extremists (referred to hereafter by the initials: IRAVE) is an organization devoted to promoting the glorious 100% raw vegan diet.

5. IRAVE has extremely strict criteria for membership.

AND:

I wish to become a full-fledged member of IRAVE, including the rights and responsibilities thereof (i.e., the right to believe and follow, without challenge or question, the teachings of IRAVE, and the responsibility to regularly send money to the IRAVE leadership).

IN RECOGNITION OF THE ABOVE:

I do hereby, of my own free will, swear or affirm my complete allegiance to the following pledge:

P L E D G E
I will follow a 100% raw vegan diet, with no backsliding or exceptions! If asked whether I ever cheat on the diet, I will DENY it, and I will IGNORE the fact that others backslide or cheat. Remember one of the many brilliant slogans taught by the IRAVE leadership: Ignorance is bliss!
I will IGNORE the post-1970 research that shows animal foods are a normal part of the diet of the great apes, our closest primate relatives. If challenged on this, I will DENY the validity of current research and claim that the apes eating animal foods are "in error," "perverted," or give other imaginative rationalization(s).
I will IGNORE the scientific evidence that our prehistoric ancestors were omnivores. I will cite outdated (and retracted) dental wear studies to support my views. If necessary, I will DENY science and evolution, and adopt creationism, for the sole reason that it can be molded to support my false dietary dogma--that humans are natural vegans/fruitarians.
I will IGNORE the evidence of comparative anatomy, which suggests that animal foods can be a natural part of the human diet. Instead, I will use the misleading human-lion-cow comparison, and claim that it shows we are natural vegetarians because we are "closer" to cows than lions.
I will IGNORE any health problems that occur on the diet, and will consider them as a sign of detox, a sign from above that I am not fully complying with the glorious 100% raw vegan diet in the theologically correct manner. I will resolve to follow the diet ever more closely, and will resist all temptations by the evil demon of cooked foods!
If 100% raw veganism does not work for someone, and the "detox" excuse fails, then I will use another unfalsifiable excuse: food quality. I will claim that their organic food was grown on a former toxic waste dump, or demand they produce a log of Brix readings and soil tests for all food in their diet. In so doing, I will IGNORE the reality that high-quality foods are but one factor among many others in diet; do not guarantee success on any diet; and I will DENY the reality that such demands are arrogant, hostile, and stupid.
I will observe, and keep holy, the sacred sacrament of food combining.
I will tell others that the diet is ideal, perfect, and natural, and will DENY the real experience of those who have problems on the diet, or for whom the diet does not work. The diet is Perfect: any problems simply must be the fault of the individual!
I will DENY that modern fruit contains excess sugar; I will IGNORE the reality that people with high % fruit diets report the symptoms of excess sugar consumption (sugar highs/blues, fatigue, excess urination, thirst, etc.). I will claim that fruit is the "highest food," and will IGNORE the reality that modern cultivated fruit has been bred for generations (in some cases, literally thousand of years) for high sugar content.
I will IGNORE the intellectual dishonesty of those who make unrealistic claims for the diet--that it will cure all diseases, bring personal happiness, perfect health, world peace, etc.
I will promote, or tolerate the promotion of, raw vegan diets using fear as a major motivator: fear of cooked foods, protein, or mucus. In so doing, I will IGNORE/DENY that such motivations are mentally toxic, pathological, and promote mental illness.
I will IGNORE or DENY the obvious reality that blaming the problems of the world on cooked foods is intellectually dishonest, and that promoting the fear/hatred of those who eat cooked foods (or meat) is analogous to racism.
I will IGNORE or attack those who criticize the glorious 100% raw vegan diet, especially if they cite scientific research. Science is the product of the minds of cooked-food consumers, thus it is a product of the evil demon of cooked foods! Beware the monstrous demon of cooked foods!
I will IGNORE those who encourage me to think for myself. Independent thought is similar to science, hence another trick by the demon of cooked foods! Instead, I will mindlessly follow all the teachings and guidance of the IRAVE leadership. What a wonderful blessing--I don't have to think anymore!
I will IGNORE the reality that some raw vegan dogma is anti-common sense, and logically invalid/inconsistent. Once again, common sense and logic are like science--yet another trap by the clever demon of cooked foods.
I will attack those who criticize the diet using anecdotal evidence, IGNORING the reality that only anecdotal evidence is available for many issues. Instead, I will demand published scientific studies on raw-fooders as proof, even though I cannot produce such studies to support my claims. If my approach is challenged as inconsistent, I will IGNORE/DENY it, as, after all, intellectual honesty and consistency are also products of the evil demon of cooked foods!
I will never accept, and will always DENY, the reality that raw veganism is not the natural diet of humans, but is instead a restriction of that natural diet.
I will IGNORE or condone those who promote the raw vegan diet via negative, hostile methods (harassment, threats, bullying, insults, etc.). I will claim that such tactics are a joke, a marketing ploy, or that the end justifies the means, if it saves people from the demon of cooked foods!
If I, or other extremist members are criticized because our methods are anti-compassion, I will DENY that veganism has anything to do with compassion. I will claim that veganism is based only on animal liberation, and will IGNORE the obvious reality that, without compassion, animal liberation is meaningless--the equivalent of automobile liberation.
If any of the leaders of IRAVE engage in plagiarism in furthering their agenda, as has been known to happen, I will IGNORE it. Although plagiarizing a book is stealing (of intellectual property), and presenting oneself as author of plagiarized material is lying, I will IGNORE (or even support) such activities if they promote the one true religion and science that is the 100% raw vegan diet.
As a member of IRAVE, I will IGNORE and DENY the need for integrity. Integrity is yet another clever trick by the demon of cooked foods! By joining IRAVE, I adopt instead "raw integrity" and "raw courage," a radical lunch-based system of ethics, in which most any means--including lying and falsification of scientific information, cheating, etc.--are all good if they promote the glorious end we uphold: the 100% raw vegan lunch.
I pledge to support the efforts of other members of IRAVE, even if they promote the glorious 100% raw vegan diet through such imaginative claims as "protein is poison," "fruit is just like mother's milk," and so on. If such claims are challenged, I will DENY the reality that they are crank science, and will instead assert they are valid science. Anything repeated often and loudly enough MUST be true!
If a member of IRAVE claims to thrive on a diet, the calorie content of which is patently or demonstrably below starvation level, I will not challenge their claim, but will defend their claims when questioned. If necessary, I will IGNORE and DENY that such claims are apparent evidence of secret binge-eating and dishonesty by those making such claims.
Whenever reality contradicts raw vegan dogma, I pledge to IGNORE reality and live in DENIAL. After all, a life of IGNORANCE and DENIAL is a life of pure joy and bliss, and a superior way of life, per the teachings of the IRAVE leadership.
I pledge that raw vegan dogma (obsession with food and dietary purity) is the most important thing in my life, and in the world. Further, raw vegan dogma is more important than the safety, health, nutritional status, or well-being of other people. I will attack those who challenge my obsessions, and will DENY the reality that my attitudes are mentally UNhealthy, and a sign of serious mental UNbalance.
In certification of my complete personal allegiance to the above solemn pledge, I hereby sign my name using one of my own precious bodily fluids:
____________________

____________________ (Date)

---

[bennyboy]

It doesn't matter if meat is a secondary source of food or not. The simple fact that they hunt and kill prey to be eaten implies they are exclusively omnivores.

Since humans share 99% of their DNA with chimps it's obvious that we would be omnivores too. The Smithsonian labels the early human Ardipithecus ramidus as an omnivore. So we evolved from omnivores and like chimps, we are omnivores.

http://www.chimpanzoo.org/african_noteca...er_14.html

http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/huma...us-ramidus

^ this.

I don't think we are going to be able to move this discussion forward much if obvious facts are being disputed. Chimps eat plants. They also eat meat. They are omnivores. Finished.

My argument for vegetarianism really is partly based on this recognition of pre-human instincts, which I consider obsolete and often harmful. We are a fighty, rape-y, violent bunch of pricks as a species; and while that is fine for animals, humans have the additional capacity of knowing better, and a greater capacity for compassion as a result. A change in values can be accompanied by meme evolution, and by selective breeding. But bullshit is the wrong vehicle for pushing for change.

In short, it is largely BECAUSE more primitive species engage in certain behaviors that I think we should examine whether we really need to persist in them.

[KichigaiNeko]

Thing is you ARE following pre-human instincts. You are being animalistic and obsessing over your next meal.

Orthorexia nervosa is the name coined for this disorder.

[Aractus]

Orthorexia nervosa is the name coined for this disorder.

Yep this is true. While I have no problem with people choosing to go vegetarian (I do see a problem with veganism), and some do it for health and some do it for compassion to animals and some do it for perceived environmentalism; ethically speaking we all have a responsibility to ensure we are eating healthy in our lives and this comes before any other dietary concerns.

I want to point out that Kichi is right - obsessing over food is disastrous and is well known to lead to anorexia and other ED's. It's also anti-social. It's also disrespectful at times to your friends and family.

I mentioned before that you have to take your own food to parties, BBQ's, etc - well this is exactly what anorexics do, and what if at that party there is someone there suffering from an ED? You'd be providing positive reinforcement for their ED by replicating their behaviour, and that should not be understated. You'd also be providing positive reinforcement for those who purge as well since the sight of the "grossly unhealthy food" makes you feel sick. You would not be setting a stable example for someone suffering from Bulimia!! You talk about not being wasteful; but how is it not being wasteful if you have to bring food to a party because you won't eat what's provided? That's the very definition of wasteful!

Now yes, a very well balanced vegan diet can be healthy, but this is well beyond the point. The fact is that most vegans are not eating healthy! They often indulge on processed foods that are bad for them!! for vegans to eat healthy (and get all the nutrients you require), as I've repeatedly stated, it requires that you plan each and every single meal ever day of your lives!! You think that most vegans do this? Like hell they do.

Some of you seem to believe a whole bunch of lies even when the truth is presented. Why is it cruel to raise animals on farms? How is it any more cruel then farming produce which requires killing pests and predators that dare enter the land (these animals are not used for anything)?

My point on wool has not been refuted by anyone, so I'll leave you with that point. Wool is an absolutely necessary fibre. A woollen jumper will keep you warm even when wet, and a synthetic one will not.

[Little Rik]

Me thinks enrico needs to [url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10479465]eat more meat to get the DHA he seems to be missing from his brain

Yeah, i think you are quite right.
From now on i will stop eating bread, rice, soya products and instead i will eat a lot of meat.
It doesn't really matter if meat is loaded with saturated fat, bad cholesterol,
and toxins and it does not really matter if 99% of those who are sick with cardiovascular diseases are meat eater.
If you say that i am wrong that's it.
I can't really argue with an expert like you.

---

I think i need some help.
Can anybody tell me why in the last 24 years that i worked in rehabilitation centers, nursing homes, dementia and transition centers
i only met less then 10 vegetarian out of about 2000 people who were affected with dementia, Parkinson and Alzheimer diseases?
Of course as you guys say that a meat diet has nothing to do with these diseases what is then the reason why veg. don't get these diseases?
I am sure that expert like you can tell me the real reason.
Please help me so i can sleep in the night.

[Whateverist]

I think i need some help.
Can anybody tell me why in the last 24 years that i worked in rehabilitation centers, nursing homes, dementia and transition centers
i only met less then 10 vegetarian out of about 2000 people who were affected with dementia, Parkinson and Alzheimer diseases?
Of course as you guys say that a meat diet has nothing to do with these diseases what is then the reason why veg. don't get these diseases?
I am sure that expert like you can tell me the real reason.
Please help me so i can sleep in the night.

Sure but first you help me. Can you tell me why vegans don't live forever? We rarely come across one more than 100 years old. What's up with that? How many years do you expect to live Rico?

Anyway, I like vegetarians. I find them less gamey than meat eaters.

[bennyboy]

ethically speaking we all have a responsibility to ensure we are eating healthy in our lives and this comes before any other dietary concerns.

This is an unsupported assertion-- you haven't established an ethical basis for self-treatment of any kind or category. It's also a false dilemma-- there's no reason why eating healthily cannot also include a serious effort to reduce the consumption and suffering of animals.

I want to point out that Kichi is right - obsessing over food is disastrous and is well known to lead to anorexia and other ED's. It's also anti-social. It's also disrespectful at times to your friends and family.

Strawman. Vegetarianism isn't a food obsession-- it's a health and moral decision. If you choose not to rape underage girls, should I accuse you of obsessing about sex?

I mentioned before that you have to take your own food to parties, BBQ's, etc - well this is exactly what anorexics do, and what if at that party there is someone there suffering from an ED? You'd be providing positive reinforcement for their ED by replicating their behaviour, and that should not be understated.

I just smacked down enrico for using made-up horseshit arguments, so it would be disingenuous not to take aim at your made-up horseshit argument. I also could use drummed-up hypothetical scenarios, combined with completely speculative consequences, to generate rhetorical outrage based on a fart. "What if a compulsive overeater is at the party? Your steak eating would be providing positive reinforcement for his desire to eat, putting him at increased risk of a heart attack."

You'd also be providing positive reinforcement for those who purge as well since the sight of the "grossly unhealthy food" makes you feel sick. You would not be setting a stable example for someone suffering from Bulimia!!

Dude, up until a couple posts ago, people were making an attempt to use actual observable fact, and scientifically-collected data, to argue their points. What the hell happened?

What if a sex-addicted person is at the party, and someone shows up in high heels? How dare they not anticipate the extremely unlikely scenario in which their manner of dress pushes a mentally ill person over the edge? What an outrage!

You talk about not being wasteful; but how is it not being wasteful if you have to bring food to a party because you won't eat what's provided? That's the very definition of wasteful!

When grown-ups plan a party, they generally plan to have a little extra. At the end of the night, they will give some of the extras away to guests for family members who couldn't make it, or they will put it in Tupperware for leftovers. Generally speaking, if they've invited a vegetarian, they will know about it, and may make sure that one or two dishes will be okay for them. At any rate, I don't think I've met a person in my LIFE who will host a party, and then throw perfectly good unused food into the garbage when it's done. But I appreciate the rage you feel for the nonexistent hypothetical hosts you've imagined who are wasting food in this way. You're a swell guy!

Now yes, a very well balanced vegan diet can be healthy, but this is well beyond the point. The fact is that most vegans people are not eating healthy!

FIFY.

We've already looked at reputable studies showing that vegetarians had better mortality rates and lower rates of some cancers and other diseases than meat eaters. We saw that even vegans didn't fare any worse than regular meat-eaters.

Yes, it's hard to maximize one's health on a vegan diet-- or at least it was, 10 or 20 years ago before reliable medical and dietary advice became available on teh interwebs. But open the window and look at the majority of people walking around. You won't see a bunch of healthy meat-eaters running circles around sickly vegans. You'll see SOME exceptionally healthy people, of a variety of diets but not much red meat, running circles around those less disciplined than themselves.

They often indulge on processed foods that are bad for them!! for vegans to eat healthy (and get all the nutrients you require), as I've repeatedly stated, it requires that you plan each and every single meal ever day of your lives!! You think that most vegans do this? Like hell they do.

I think most vegans these days probably ARE quite aware of their dietary needs, and are taking steps to ensure their health. Google vegan health, and you'll find literally hundreds of sites about how to be healthy and vegan. There are also vegan body-builders, fighters and marathon runners, and they are much healthier than you (I'm guessing) and I.

Some of you seem to believe a whole bunch of lies even when the truth is presented. Why is it cruel to raise animals on farms? How is it any more cruel then farming produce which requires killing pests and predators that dare enter the land (these animals are not used for anything)?

False dilemma again. The goal of most vegetarians would be to reduce meat production, and also to improve farming techniques to minimize the effect on the ecosystem, including the organisms living in it.

My point on wool has not been refuted by anyone, so I'll leave you with that point. Wool is an absolutely necessary fibre. A woollen jumper will keep you warm even when wet, and a synthetic one will not.

Gore Tex

[Bad Wolf]

It doesn't really matter if meat is loaded with saturated fat, bad cholesterol,
and toxins and it does not really matter if 99% of those who are sick with cardiovascular diseases are meat eater.

Link? Evidence? Citation? Something?

I think i need some help.
Can anybody tell me why in the last 24 years that i worked in rehabilitation centers, nursing homes, dementia and transition centers
i only met less then 10 vegetarian out of about 2000 people who were affected with dementia, Parkinson and Alzheimer diseases?
Of course as you guys say that a meat diet has nothing to do with these diseases what is then the reason why veg. don't get these diseases?
I am sure that expert like you can tell me the real reason.
Please help me so i can sleep in the night.

Again: You fucking idiot. Vegetarians are no where near as common as meat eating people, of course you're only going to see a few.

Are you sure you are a nurse and not a mental patient in a nursing home?