WTF? Elephants that paint?

[Whateverist]

http://youtu.be/oAvJElLFAEQ

There are a number of these youtube videos out of Thailand. I'm not sure if more than one elephant is so talented. It is obviously something trained but .. WOW!

So apparently the elephant is one of a very few animals which show in mirror tests that they are self aware. My mind is boggled. Just how smart are they?

[pineapplebunnybounce]

I've seen painting elephants in Thailand ... they did a lot of other tricks, too, as a kid I really enjoyed it but now looking back I really doubt they were treated well and I don't really want to consider how they actually trained them. I'm guessing it's not much different from circuses . I haven't had the heart to look it up. The reason I think so is because the zoo in here (Toronto) has huge compounds for their animals and tries to put them in their natural habitat and also does conservation work to encourage breeding and I think they're treated as well as possible given the situation (loss of habitat and conservation concerns), the zoo I went to in Thailand was really small and more like a private business.

[downbeatplumb]

I looked to see if it had been debunked but apparently its real.

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/elephant-painting.shtml

[Whateverist]

I can believe it. It is a shame how they are treated and of course they are one of the most dangerous animals to work with. But when I think about the consciousness of elephants I get a little excited in a we're-not-alone sort of way. I wonder what their subjective life is like. I don't think they use language so they wouldn't engage in discursive thinking - but that just fuels my suspicion they are smart with an interesting perspective. Wish there was a way to interact which resulted in no harm to either of us.

[Clueless Morgan]

http://youtu.be/oAvJElLFAEQ

There are a number of these youtube videos out of Thailand. I'm not sure if more than one elephant is so talented. It is obviously something trained but .. WOW!

The elephants we have at the Oregon Zoo paint. Granted, their work is more impressionistic...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KW5y7SmQq4

I've watched Rama painting before, and I think they let the chimps paint, too. The Oregon Zoo does it to keep the animals interested and engaged so they don't get bored, depressed or destructive.

There is definitely an aspect of training to it (holding the brush, commands to paint, to blow in Rama's case) but what they paint is up to them. I don't know how they get the elephants in Thailand to paint representational work, that's kind of amazing and is probably a result of lots of training.

[pineapplebunnybounce]

I can believe it. It is a shame how they are treated and of course they are one of the most dangerous animals to work with. But when I think about the consciousness of elephants I get a little excited in a we're-not-alone sort of way. I wonder what their subjective life is like. I don't think they use language so they wouldn't engage in discursive thinking - but that just fuels my suspicion they are smart with an interesting perspective. Wish there was a way to interact which resulted in no harm to either of us.

But a self portrait could be the result of pavlovian type training. I think it's important to know that if they could identify the picture as a self portrait rather than just something they did.

Elephants mourn their dead and have rituals.

Elephants are the only species of mammals other than Homo sapiens sapiens and Neanderthals[35] known to have or have had any recognizable ritual around death. They show a keen interest in the bones of their own kind (even unrelated elephants that have died long ago). They are often seen gently investigating the bones with their trunks and feet while remaining very quiet. Sometimes elephants that are completely unrelated to the deceased still visit their graves.[14] When an elephant is hurt, other elephants (even if they are unrelated) aid them.[24]

I think they must have feelings and subjective experiences beyond "instincts".

[Whateverist]

Well I read somewhere that elephants showed self awareness by reacting to their image in a mirror. But the following video contradicts that and I find none that support it.

At about 6:19 in this video they show at least that some elephants do not pass the test. So I suppose what I read about their self-awareness is probably wrong.

http://youtu.be/tOpaQ2SpVjo

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I can believe it. It is a shame how they are treated and of course they are one of the most dangerous animals to work with. But when I think about the consciousness of elephants I get a little excited in a we're-not-alone sort of way. I wonder what their subjective life is like. I don't think they use language so they wouldn't engage in discursive thinking - but that just fuels my suspicion they are smart with an interesting perspective. Wish there was a way to interact which resulted in no harm to either of us.

But a self portrait could be the result of pavlovian type training. I think it's important to know that if they could identify the picture as a self portrait rather than just something they did.

Oh I do agree. Apparently the really good paintings are the result of heavy training. I just thought I'd heard that when some mark is made on their visage and they have access to and familiarity with a mirror that they will attempt to remove the mark .. thereby showing they realize the image in the mirror is of them. Some animals do this but apparently not the elephants.

Elephants mourn their dead and have rituals.

Elephants are the only species of mammals other than Homo sapiens sapiens and Neanderthals[35] known to have or have had any recognizable ritual around death. They show a keen interest in the bones of their own kind (even unrelated elephants that have died long ago). They are often seen gently investigating the bones with their trunks and feet while remaining very quiet. Sometimes elephants that are completely unrelated to the deceased still visit their graves.[14] When an elephant is hurt, other elephants (even if they are unrelated) aid them.[24]

I think they must have feelings and subjective experiences beyond "instincts".

Seems likely. I knew about their obsession with the bones. Pretty interesting.

[My imaginary friend is GOD]

Elephants are pretty intelligent and social animals. They can recognize themselves in the mirror. They can work together to solve problems. Of course, they don't hold a candle to our dolphin overlords, but they're still pretty boss.

[Whateverist]

Still you wouldn't mind having an elephant as a personal guardian. I've seen videos of one kicking an ornery rhino's ass and another of one rolling a full grown hippo.

[Cyberman]

Interestingly, I watched a BBC documentary last night about intelligence and problem-solving skills in animals. No elephants entered the room but of the animals that were featured, mainly crows, a distinct pattern emerged. Apparently it's a combination of the ratio between brain size to body mass (the more intelligent animals, us included, have brains up to twice as large as would be necessary just to run the body) and being a social species. It seems that social animals have a greater capacity of learning survival skills from others in the group and such skills baing passed down to successive generations.