Spirituality and atheism

[bennyboy]

While these things are not literally spiritual, their rareness and their involvement of non-mundane frames of reference merits the term spiritual, IMO, since this is the word that best captures how unique they are to the normal physical processes of hitting things or looking at them under a microscope to investigate them.

And exactly how does it do that?

It doesn't, exactly.

The mind isn't black and white, nor are feelings. So we use lots of imprecise language to talk about them. This is only a problem if you want to fit subjective feeling-shaped blocks into objective science-shaped holes. Don't believe me? Suggest another word that better encapsulates the experiences that are usually referred to as spiritual. Harris can't, and I don't think you or I can, either.

[Whateverist]

And exactly how does it do that?

It doesn't, exactly.

The mind isn't black and white, nor are feelings. So we use lots of imprecise language to talk about them. This is only a problem if you want to fit subjective feeling-shaped blocks into objective science-shaped holes. Don't believe me? Suggest another word that better encapsulates the experiences that are usually referred to as spiritual. Harris can't, and I don't think you or I can, either.

I fail to see how using imprecise language will help to understand anything.

[bennyboy]

I fail to see how using imprecise language will help to understand anything.

I think you probably are not a big fan of sitting for hours trying to turn off your conscious ego and connect to the universe, either. And yet this is an activity that people engage in, and since it results in an experience that is far removed from our normal perception of our physical surroundings, they call it a "spiritual" experience. I don't see why it's a big deal. People like to play with the mind in ways that have no useful impact on their ability to build bridges or to keep a car safely on the road or whatever, and they use the word "spiritual" to describe that mental play. Just like a person doing LSD isn't literally on a trip, but his experiences can be somewhat poetically described as a "trip." To me, the right approach to this is to let it go. We know what Harris is talking about, I think, and fighting about etymology or semantics isn't really as useful as just saying, "Okay, if that's what you mean by it, then whatever. . ."

The only big deal is when people start equivocating to support bullshit, a la: "Sam Harris is a strong proponent of spirituality, so at least some scientists accept the reality of an incorporeal spirit. So God." That would be an epic fail, and would require at least 20 insulting "Double faceslap" meme pictures to correct the poster's behavior.

[Ryantology]

I think you probably are not a big fan of sitting for hours trying to turn off your conscious ego and connect to the universe, either.

Okay, look, I smoke a lot of weed and eat the occasional shroom, and I know that a lot of people attach labels of 'mystical' and 'spiritual' to the resulting experiences, but it's really just a fun and interesting way to remix your neurochemistry for a few hours. Meditation and other such exercises is basically doing the same thing in a less radical fashion. Some people need it to be more than that, the way some people apparently cannot function without the belief that the vast machinery of the universe has a conscious operator.

I mean, if that's what you're into, whatever. It's harmless. But, it's still making more out of something than is actually in it.

[Whateverist]

I fail to see how using imprecise language will help to understand anything.

I think you probably are not a big fan of sitting for hours trying to turn off your conscious ego and connect to the universe, either. And yet this is an activity that people engage in, and since it results in an experience that is far removed from our normal perception of our physical surroundings, they call it a "spiritual" experience. I don't see why it's a big deal. People like to play with the mind in ways that have no useful impact on their ability to build bridges or to keep a car safely on the road or whatever, and they use the word "spiritual" to describe that mental play. Just like a person doing LSD isn't literally on a trip, but his experiences can be somewhat poetically described as a "trip."

I'm trying to understand why you think the one is related to the other. What I'm not a big fan of is getting lost in language. Words matter so they are best avoided unless there is something to to say and someone to say it to.

I actually happen to be a big proponent of exploring consciousness and have been down more than a few avenues. One thing that has a huge impact on how you experience your consciousness is language. Do you know that some people actually totally identify "thinking" with "discursive thinking"? If you practice mindful observation you notice that everything can be noted without any of it being narrated. Narrating experience is a trap that constrains consciousness in a big way.

Language is a kind of filter which reduces the band width on what you experience. It has its utility of course for what we're doing right now - communication. But inside your own head when you aren't communicating to anyone, there is no reason to reduce the bandwidth. Nothing is gained but much is lost, and it becomes habitual.

So words matter and no words is better. Using words loosely serves no purpose at all. It doesn't communicate and there is no other reason to engage in them. Our ancient mammalian minds do not require them. Language is the new kid on the block. Don't let it take over.

[KichigaiNeko]

Spirituality?

Sitting on the beach at sunset, just watching the waves.


Nothing more.

[dscross]

Spirituality?

Sitting on the beach at sunset, just watching the waves.


Nothing more.

Nothing more at all? Nothing reflective or transformative about it?

[Ryantology]

Nothing more at all? Nothing reflective or transformative about it?

Not inherently. Often, not even practically. It's okay to look at a sunset just to enjoy how it stimulates the senses.

[bennyboy]

I think you probably are not a big fan of sitting for hours trying to turn off your conscious ego and connect to the universe, either.

Okay, look, I smoke a lot of weed and eat the occasional shroom, and I know that a lot of people attach labels of 'mystical' and 'spiritual' to the resulting experiences, but it's really just a fun and interesting way to remix your neurochemistry for a few hours. Meditation and other such exercises is basically doing the same thing in a less radical fashion. Some people need it to be more than that, the way some people apparently cannot function without the belief that the vast machinery of the universe has a conscious operator.

I mean, if that's what you're into, whatever. It's harmless. But, it's still making more out of something than is actually in it.

No. It's just a word for some experiences.

---

So words matter and no words is better. Using words loosely serves no purpose at all. It doesn't communicate and there is no other reason to engage in them. Our ancient mammalian minds do not require them. Language is the new kid on the block. Don't let it take over.

I don't think what your saying holds up to a simple observation of people's interests and activities and the words they use. Harris and others who use the term use it meaningfully, though not necessarily precisely.

The idea that a word has to have a black-and-white meaning to be used, or to be useful, is demonstrably false. We use all kinds of words that don't really have a singe clear meaning-- in fact, almost all the stuff that is important to us: liberty, love, happiness, and even the word "meaning" itself are all imprecise, but this serves as no barrier.

As for the "no language" idea, that's fine. But in order to communicate that idea, you used a bunch of pixellated shapes that we call. . . what's that word, again?

[Whateverist]

As for the "no language" idea, that's fine. But in order to communicate that idea, you used a bunch of pixellated shapes that we call. . . what's that word, again?

You don't deal very well with language. I never said no language. i said language is good for communicating something to somebody.

I think I see now why you require an imprecise word like spirituality. You really don't have a clue.