Spirituality and atheism

[dscross]

Nothing more at all? Nothing reflective or transformative about it?

Not inherently. Often, not even practically. It's okay to look at a sunset just to enjoy how it stimulates the senses.

I agree with what you are saying and know where you are coming from. And are you saying maybe that over-intellectualisation is part of the problem/human condition? Because that is a good point and definitely worth noting.

However, I would argue that it takes practice to 'just sense' frequently and not let your thoughts disturb your enjoyment of natural, conscious sensations (mindfulness).

Therefore, in my view, the word 'spirituality' could be, at least partly, used to describe that practice and the lifelong struggle it takes to be able to accept things (and yourself) as they are.

I think this makes for an excellent way to start a discussion on it though.

[SteelCurtain]

I would argue that it takes practice to 'just sense' frequently and not let your thoughts disturb your enjoyment of natural, conscious sensations (mindfulness).

I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment. Recently I learned to experience my emotions. This sounds trivial, but my whole life I've being doing things to relieve anger, resentment, frustration, anxiety, even happiness. I would think my way out of any emotion. The difference in my life from a perceptual standpoint when I allow myself (appropriately) to be angry or anxious or happy in the moment allows me to experience life on a whole other (non-ethereal) plane. The way I would describe it is life in color instead of black and white.

I would say that my relationships and my connectedness with others has been heightened with this knowledge, and I would liberally describe that knowledge and experience as a sort of spirituality. Knowledge that makes my life more real, more connected, more excitable. No Jesus required.

[bennyboy]

As for the "no language" idea, that's fine. But in order to communicate that idea, you used a bunch of pixellated shapes that we call. . . what's that word, again?

You don't deal very well with language. I never said no language. i said language is good for communicating something to somebody.

I think I see now why you require an imprecise word like spirituality. You really don't have a clue.

Oooh, insulting. One, two, three, four, I declare a meme war!

Language is good for communicating something to somebody. But many things, especially feelings or other subjective experiences, cannot be clearly communicated using literal language. Therefore, we resort to symbolism, metaphor, and words whose meaning cannot be limited consisely enough to get them "just right" in a dictionary.

I've even given a list of such words, which are used with meaning all the time, and which you have deliberately excluded from your reply. Go ahead, give precise definitions which fully embody them, or try these ones: wisdom, intelligence, beauty, morality. Then add to that list, "spirituality."

[Whateverist]

Since you seem to be intent on having an argument with yourself I'll leave you to it. The person you think you are arguing with is someone uninterested in consciousness, who is against all language use and makes no distinction between rationality and emotion/feelings. You've got the wrong guy but you are too poor a reader to know better.

But you go ahead and argue for the specialness of spirituality being something ineffable. I'll just go on thinking you are a Don Quixote tilting at windmills you don't see clearly. But that doesn't mean I don't think there is more to consciousness than rationality. Most people here probably think I'm a little too extreme in that regard.

Good luck.



Oh, and look up your own damned words. No more pearls for you.

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Oooh, insulting. One, two, three, four, I declare a meme war!

I'm too lazy to engage you in memes but if it is a smily face-off you're after .. it's on!

First of all, a confession. When I was younger I too was interested in the spiritual. Like you, , I was a nutcase. I don't know why the young and the gullible gravitate to weird shit. But it isn't just you and it was my own stupidity which really pisses me off now, not yours. You seem bright enough.

Now I could go on all day telling you what the matter is with your position .. .. but really what would that accomplish.

It isn't really your fault that you listen so well. You're young (I assume) while I'm old and cranky . So I'm going to wave the white flag of peace now.

[Angrboda]

@benny:

You originally claimed that the word 'spirituality' was uniquely well suited to what Harris is attempting to describe. I hope we won't have to have an extended discussion about whether or not words like 'unique' and the phrase 'best captures' can be plainly understood. Despite a lot of words, you haven't shown how the term is uniquely well suited, and why, but rather appear to have fallen back on your standard tactic of obfuscation. If you don't have an answer, I won't mind. I get the impression that happens to you a lot.

[dscross]

The difference in my life from a perceptual standpoint when I allow myself (appropriately) to be angry or anxious or happy in the moment allows me to experience life on a whole other (non-ethereal) plane. The way I would describe it is life in color instead of black and white.

I would say that my relationships and my connectedness with others has been heightened with this knowledge, and I would liberally describe that knowledge and experience as a sort of spirituality. Knowledge that makes my life more real, more connected, more excitable. No Jesus required.

Well put. I think the articulation of this kind of personal experience greatly helps with the definition of spirituality that many people struggle with.

[bennyboy]

@benny:

You originally claimed that the word 'spirituality' was uniquely well suited to what Harris is attempting to describe. I hope we won't have to have an extended discussion about whether or not words like 'unique' and the phrase 'best captures' can be plainly understood. Despite a lot of words, you haven't shown how the term is uniquely well suited, and why, but rather appear to have fallen back on your standard tactic of obfuscation. If you don't have an answer, I won't mind. I get the impression that happens to you a lot.

I do in fact think that "spirituality" is a good choice for describing certain kinds of experience. You can look at descriptions of religious experience through history, and realize that while factual attributions of source are clearly false, the nature of many of the experiences have common themes: a sense of one-ness with the rest of creation, a sense of exceptional tranquility, etc. Harris is shedding the dogma while recognizing that the kinds of experiences he's talking about have a history.

You think I'm arguing precision where there is none? You don't think "spirituality" is the best word for the kind of activities and experiences Harris talks about? Fine. Suggest another one.

I'd prefer you leave the insults or personal generalizations untyped though-- they really don't add much to the argument.

[Ryantology]

Therefore, in my view, the word 'spirituality' could be, at least partly, used to describe that practice and the lifelong struggle it takes to be able to accept things (and yourself) as they are.

The only word I find necessary to match that description is 'experience'.

[dscross]

Therefore, in my view, the word 'spirituality' could be, at least partly, used to describe that practice and the lifelong struggle it takes to be able to accept things (and yourself) as they are.

The only word I find necessary to match that description is 'experience'.

Well, you sort of have to take the sentence I wrote prior to that about 'practice' to get the context of what I meant. You obviously dislike the way the word is used, but to quote Harris:

"There seems to be no other term (apart from the even more problematic “mystical” or the more restrictive “contemplative”) with which to discuss the deliberate efforts some people make to overcome their feeling of separateness—through meditation, psychedelics, or other means of inducing non-ordinary states of consciousness.

"And I find neologisms pretentious and annoying. Hence, I appear to have no choice: “Spiritual” it is."

- See more at: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/a-ple...h2sR8.dpuf