500

[truthBtold]

I posted the OP question on my Facebook and here's what one of my Christian friends replied with:

"Just because he appeared to five hundred people does not mean they would have all been in that room on that particular occasion. Its pretty difficult to get 500 specific people with different schedules in the same room even today and we have cell phones and text messaging."

If anyone feels like schooling a gullible Christian, my Facebook is Sean R. Strnad. I'd welcome any comments (all I ask is that you play nice. This kid is dense but I still may run into him in person)

Tell him to join here... ha!!

[Mudhammam]

I posted the OP question on my Facebook and here's what one of my Christian friends replied with:

"Just because he appeared to five hundred people does not mean they would have all been in that room on that particular occasion. Its pretty difficult to get 500 specific people with different schedules in the same room even today and we have cell phones and text messaging."

If anyone feels like schooling a gullible Christian, my Facebook is Sean R. Strnad. I'd welcome any comments (all I ask is that you play nice. This kid is dense but I still may run into him in person)

Tell him to join here... ha!!

Haha. Unlikely!

[Tonus]

All I could think of as I worked my way methodically through Mark's gospel was - and people believe in this? Two point something billion people believe in this?

That's the point, isn't it? Two billion people believe in hundreds, perhaps thousands of different versions of this. The pliability of the message of the Bible may have been unintentional, but it is probably one of the primary factors in it remaining relevant to this day. If your religious doctrine can be modified as needed in order to meet the desires of the current culture, it really does become timeless.

[Aractus]

Lately, I've been hearing a lot from visiting Christians that 500 witnesses saw Jesus ascend into the sky after his resurrection.

The reference is to Paul's testimony in 1Cor 15. First, let me begin by going step by step through the relevant parts of the chapter:

1COR 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

What scriptures? The Gospels had not yet been written. And why did he need to hear about it from the scriptures instead of an obvious recent history, one that happened only a few years prior?

• Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
  
  For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

The scriptures to which Paul refers is clearly the OT. This section in 1Cor 15 is an early Christian creed, and it is indeed the creed and not the OT scriptures which Paul "received" and then delivered and preached to others. Galatians 2 has another creed which Paul records as another statement of his faith:

• But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.

While you could argue that Paul came up with the Gal2 creed himself, the 1Cor 15 is one which he himself received preached to him, as he makes clear with the off-the-cuff comment that he also received it - this would have been obvious to his audience, but he mentions it as a reminder that he, Paul, is not the instigator but a messenger.

15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

But Cephas (Peter) WAS one of the disciples and Judas was dead and Mattias, his replacement, hadn't yet been chosen.

It probably doesn't mean the literal 12 but the remaining 11, or could include Matthias we can't be sure.

If 500 people saw him at once, how did they not convert? According to Acts, the Christians numbered at 120.

The 500 were existing Christians. Acts does not number the people that Jesus appears before in Acts 1:6-11, and the 120 number you're quoting is the number of people presents when Matthias is chosen to replace Judas.

15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

Wasn't James one of the 12?

No. There were two disciples named James, but neither was James the Just the brother of Jesus.

15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

But all this happened within Paul's lifetime. How was Paul born at the wrong time? Did Paul believe the resurrection of Jesus happened in a distant past? Would that explain why he heard about it "from the scriptures" instead of recent memory?

Paul laments that he persecuted the church "as to one untimely born", it's not a literal meaning that he was born too late but that he sees his conversion as being too late seeing as he had persecuted the church and so thought of himself as a lesser apostle for it.

So Jesus hung around for 40 days after the resurrection? Not exactly consistent with the Gospel accounts, some of which say he rose into Heaven that very day. Ironically, the Gospel of Luke, supposedly the same author as Acts of the Apostles, is one of the sources that says "same day".

• Luke 23:39-43:
  One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

That's an argument for another time.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

---

Lately, I've been hearing a lot from visiting Christians that 500 witnesses saw Jesus ascend into the sky after his resurrection.

The reference is to Paul's testimony in 1Cor 15. First, let me begin by going step by step through the relevant parts of the chapter:

1COR 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

What scriptures? The Gospels had not yet been written. And why did he need to hear about it from the scriptures instead of an obvious recent history, one that happened only a few years prior?

And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

---

Actually, he died on Friday and rose before dawn on Sunday according to John, so that seems more like two days, but hey, who's counting?

---

15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

But Cephas (Peter) WAS one of the disciples and Judas was dead and Mattias, his replacement, hadn't yet been chosen.

15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

If 500 people saw him at once, how did they not convert? According to Acts, the Christians numbered at 120.

15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

Wasn't James one of the 12?

15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

But all this happened within Paul's lifetime. How was Paul born at the wrong time? Did Paul believe the resurrection of Jesus happened in a distant past? Would that explain why he heard about it "from the scriptures" instead of recent memory?

Now on to Acts

Acts 1:1-3 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,
Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

So Jesus hung around for 40 days after the resurrection? Not exactly consistent with the Gospel accounts, some of which say he rose into Heaven that very day. Ironically, the Gospel of Luke, supposedly the same author as Acts of the Apostles, is one of the sources that says "same day".

1:9-11 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

So this marks the ascension.

1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

So there were only 120 of them. Why not 500? Did the other 380 just say, "Meh, just some guy flying up into the clouds. And those angels saying something or other, happens all the time".

500 isn't 120.

---

The conventional wisdom is that Jesus was crucified on Friday but to get the correct answer you have to follow all of the clues given. The correct day was most likely Wednesday. A case can even be made for a Thursday crucifixion. To get the correct answer to match the clues a person would have to calculate backwards for almost 2,000 years, throwing in the change in our calendar and the day of preparation for the passover sabbath (which was in the middle of the week for that incident). You can also get distracted by the regular sabbath.
http://thewayofthemessiah.org/tsp.html

IMO you need a supercomputer to figure out the ethnocentric Jewish religious fairy tale. But it's good to read all of the opinions.

[orangebox21]

Lately, I've been hearing a lot from visiting Christians that 500 witnesses saw Jesus ascend into the sky after his resurrection.

Paul's reference to the number of people (500) who witnessed Christ in bodily form after the resurrection up to and including the ascension. Not all 500 necessarily witnessed the ascension.

What scriptures? The Gospels had not yet been written. And why did he need to hear about it from the scriptures instead of an obvious recent history, one that happened only a few years prior?

Shonuff and Aractus have it right. The old testament scriptures.

Actually, he died on Friday and rose before dawn on Sunday according to John, so that seems more like two days, but hey, who's counting?

Friday, Saturday, Sunday. 3 Days.
For more in depth:http://www.apologeticspress.org/APConten...&topic=228

15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

But Cephas (Peter) WAS one of the disciples and Judas was dead and Mattias, his replacement, hadn't yet been chosen.

True. It is true that this appearance was most likely only to ten disciples, and later to eleven, but the disciples as a group were traditionally known as "the Twelve" and Paul is using the language of tradition here (Paraphrased from the Expositor's Bible Commentary).

15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

If 500 people saw him at once, how did they not convert? According to Acts, the Christians numbered at 120.

The group Peter was among numbered 120. Maybe I'm missing something here; why do you think the 120 were the only believers?

15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

Wasn't James one of the 12?

James the brother of Jesus, not James one of the sons of Zebedee nor James the son of Alphaeus (of the twelve)

15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

But all this happened within Paul's lifetime. How was Paul born at the wrong time? Did Paul believe the resurrection of Jesus happened in a distant past? Would that explain why he heard about it "from the scriptures" instead of recent memory?

Paul was 'born out of due time' in the sense that when Jesus appeared to Paul it was 'out of the time' when He appeared to the other believers. Jesus appeared to Paul post-ascension.

1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

So there were only 120 of them. Why not 500? Did the other 380 just say, "Meh, just some guy flying up into the clouds. And those angels saying something or other, happens all the time".
500 isn't 120.

The alleged number discrepancy has previously been addressed. As to the rest of the statement, consider: Post ressurection, Matthew 28:16-17 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. Not everyone who saw, believed.

[Minimalist]

Your fucking apostles are just as phony as your fucking godboy, laddie. Merely the Dramatis Personae of this little bit of fiction.

[ThomM]

something or other, happens all the time".

500 isn't 120.
[/quote]

Proof is required OUTSIDE of the bible - which Is nothing more than the fairy tales - legends - myths - and superstitions of a group of ancient goat herders -cave and tent dwellers - and fishermen.

WHen the bible was accepted as complete and inerrant - the religion claimed that ALL things in it were self proof.

Now that we can - without question - prove that there are ERRORS in the bible - the bible is ONLY as good as the proof of the events provided by the people making the claim

So - first -

1 - Ask these people to PROVE who wrote those statements - WHEN they were written - and if they could have been eye witnesses to begin with
2 - Ask for independent proof from outside of the bible.

If they argue - simply say that there are a number of different religious tomes - all claimed to be true - THEY would want PROOF you ask for - for claims of the Koran.

[Aractus]

^ Fuck you two idiots are complete trolls. If you're not going to post intelligibly then why bother posting in the first place?

What a waste of valuable internet.