So U think Vegan is healthy?

[Aractus]

Can you not get protein from beans and other alternatives like soy?

Soy is poison, and you can't get any high quality protein from fruit/veg/nuts and grains. We've already been over this.

As to your claim that eating a mostly vegan diet is healthier (for everyone?) you need to provide a source, I'd remind you already provided this study proving veganism leads to bad health in Austria.

[NoraBrimstone]

Oh noes! Soy is poison! I'm deeeead!!! And I have no protein, so I'm even more deeeead!!!

#ghostpost

[MJ the Skeptical]

Can you not get protein from beans and other alternatives like soy?

Soy is poison, and you can't get any high quality protein from fruit/veg/nuts and grains. We've already been over this.

As to your claim that eating a mostly vegan diet is healthier (for everyone?) you need to provide a source, I'd remind you already provided this study proving veganism leads to bad health in Austria.

We've been over this? speak for yourself, I don't remember you, I just got here.

You're still full of shit, meat is not the one and only good source of protein.

[Aractus]

We've been over this? speak for yourself, I don't remember you, I just got here.

The videos in the OP are of someone who was unable to thrive on a well planned vegan diet, no matter what supplements he took etc he couldn't build muscle - that's in the very first post, you only had to read that far. Animal protein is high quality protein and plant protein is low quality, vegans do claim that enough "low quality" plant protein can replace the good-quality animal protein, however it doesn't work like that in the real world. It might work for some, but certainly not for everyone, so not everyone get enough protein from fruit, veg and nuts.

You're still full of shit, meat is not the one and only good source of protein.

I beg your fucking pardon? At least read some academic literature before spurting your bullshit here. "High quality protein" is a source of protein which provides all nine essential amino acids, and the only source of high quality protein is meat and animal products (eggs and dairy). Plant-based products (fruit/veg/nuts) contain dietary fibre with incomplete protein, that's why plant protein is called "low quality".

A while ago a friend of mine told me that American coke has more sugar in it than our Australian coke - so I looked it up and it had exactly the same amount of sugar, so I thought "oh well he's wrong". But I recently found out that US coke is actually sweetened using high fructose corn syrup (HFCS) instead of ordinary cane sugar (sucrose), and so it contains something like a 20% higher concentration of fructose, so that 10 or 11 grams per 100 grams of sugar in coke is not the same, and consequently significantly worse in the US! It's a similar principle, "sugar is sugar" well if it's got a higher concentration of fructose it's certainly not as healthy as the traditional stuff, same thing goes with the quality of protein - just because two foods have it doesn't mean they're the same.

[Coffee Jesus]

There's a lot of processed soy crap out there. Prove that unprocessed soy, like edamame, is poison.

Don't forget nuts! Show that nuts are unhealthy!

I beg your fucking pardon? At least read some academic literature before spurting your bullshit here. "High quality protein" is a source of protein which provides all nine essential amino acids, and the only source of high quality protein is meat and animal products (eggs and dairy). Plant-based products (fruit/veg/nuts) contain dietary fibre with incomplete protein, that's why plant protein is called "low quality".

Do you know how the genetic code works?

[Coffee Jesus]

I'd remind you already provided this study proving veganism leads to bad health in Austria.

I'm on page 5, but I am going to post my thoughts so far before I get to sleep.

The study is a cross-sectional study. Cross-sectional isn't as good as cross-sequential, but they controlled for certain factors. Each vegetarian was matched with another person of similar socioeconomic status and the same gender and age.

First problem: They couldn't find enough vegans to have a uniquely vegan sample, so they just mixed everyone into a vegetarian study sample. Their sample was only one-eleventh vegan.

While 0.2% of the interviewees were pure vegetarians (57.7%
female), 0.8% reported to be vegetarians consuming milk and eggs
(77.3% female), and 1.2% to be vegetarians consuming fish and/
or eggs and milk (76.7% female)

Second problem: Some of the participants were old, and were probably vegetarian or even vegan during their youth as well. They would have been B12 deficient, which explains the mental problems of anxiety and depression, well-know symptoms of B12 deficiency.
Third problem: The study has a strong female bias. That NIH article says that the benefits of vegetarianism are especially strong for men.

Overall, 23.6% of all subjects were male and 76.4% female. 40.0%
of the individuals were younger than 30 years, 17.8% between 30
and 39 years, 17.6% between 40 and 49 years, 9.4% between 50
and 59 years, 8.4% between 60 and 69 years, 4.4% between 70
and 79 years, and 2.4% than 80 years or older.

[MJ the Skeptical]

The videos in the OP are of someone who was unable to thrive on a well planned vegan diet, no matter what supplements he took etc he couldn't build muscle

Kind of a slippery slope suggesting that you need meat to gain muscle huh? Are you suggesting people haven't gained muscle on vegan diets or there are no vegan athletes? If your answer is no then I'm just going to outright call you wrong and ignorant.

..that's in the very first post, you only had to read that far.

Which didn't prove that you needed meat since people can live without it, but continue...

Animal protein is high quality protein and plant protein is low quality

So what?

vegans do claim that enough "low quality" plant protein can replace the good-quality animal protein

Thus my, so what? comment above.

however it doesn't work like that in the real world. It might work for some, but certainly not for everyone, so not everyone get enough protein from fruit, veg and nuts.

Which is why I suggested a balanced diet, there are drawbacks to every diet you try. If you exclusively ate meat or mostly ate meat you'd have horrible problems if not worse problems that if you were vegan or mostly vegan. And while a balanced diet is the best we can do currently, can we at least agree that meat is far from the most needed food group.

I beg your fucking pardon? At least read some academic literature before spurting your bullshit here.

Why do you assume I haven't? What are you even saying I'm getting wrong. I've been pretty universal about this whole thing and even saying we should have a balanced diet. And I'll even go as far to say getting rid of meat is not likely any time soon.

"High quality protein" is a source of protein which provides all nine essential amino acids, and the only source of high quality protein is meat and animal products (eggs and dairy).

I was going to mention eggs, cheese, beans, tofu, yogurt and nuts to name a few.

Plant-based products (fruit/veg/nuts) contain dietary fibre with incomplete protein, that's why plant protein is called "low quality".

We're not in disagreement about what has more protein, I think you're kind of missing the point of my post. Let me give you a hypothetical. If we were able to get our protein in the same way as we do with meat, could you ween yourself from meat someday? From what I've been reading into, we will likely have the ability to grow meat in the lab with simple cells or some other modified way.

just because two foods have it doesn't mean they're the same.

Nobody ever said two similar foods were the same, that's your straw man.

[Aractus]

There's a lot of processed soy crap out there. Prove that unprocessed soy, like edamame, is poison.

Raw soy is toxic to all carnivores and omnivores. It's only non-toxic to herbivores.

Proof: The Health Dangers of Soy by Dr. Joseph Mercola

Now, since we know soy is toxic the onus of proof on whether processed soy is "safe to eat in moderate amounts" is on the one making the claim, and so far it has not been proven.

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Kind of a slippery slope suggesting that you need meat to gain muscle huh? Are you suggesting people haven't gained muscle on vegan diets or there are no vegan athletes? If your answer is no then I'm just going to outright call you wrong and ignorant.

I'm not even going to bother dignifying that with an answer since you've obviously made a straw man.

Which didn't prove that you needed meat since people can live without it, but continue...

Since you're the one making that claim, the onus of proof is on you. Show me vegan societies anywhere in the world that have reproduced and thrived on a vegan diet? The average length of time a person in the USA is on a vegetarian diet is 9 years (the figure from psychology today). Health problems from deficiencies can take 20 years to develop.

There are vegans that took oral B12 supplements and came to a point where their doctors told them the only way that they can continue their vegan diets is with intravenous B12, administered twice a year or so. That's why a lot of vegans that know about this are unable to tell you which B12 supplement to take to avoid B12 deficiency because the tablets have been proven not to work for everyone; just like how we have no drugs whatsoever that are effective for managing obesity - and in fact the drugs that have been on the market previously have been withdrawn.

There is no oral B12 supplement that has been proven can work long term for vegans.

Which is why I suggested a balanced diet, there are drawbacks to every diet you try. If you exclusively ate meat or mostly ate meat you'd have horrible problems if not worse problems that if you were vegan or mostly vegan. And while a balanced diet is the best we can do currently, can we at least agree that meat is far from the most needed food group.

Eliminating an entire food group (or two, counting dairy separately) is not a balanced diet. Furthermore your comparison is uneven: meat is one food group out of five, and someone who eats only meat is eliminating four out of the five food groups. A vegan is eliminating two entire food groups: meat and dairy, that is not balanced. A paleo eliminates grain entirely, that also may not be balanced.

Why do you assume I haven't? What are you even saying I'm getting wrong. I've been pretty universal about this whole thing and even saying we should have a balanced diet. And I'll even go as far to say getting rid of meat is not likely any time soon.

No, anything you have read is probably propaganda. There's an awful lot of it out there - there is the material that says we could feed the whole world with more grain (that's not true and it's been proven), there's material that says meat is unhealthy - that's also not true - the only thing that is true, that has been proven scientifically is that overconsumption of red meat is unhealthy, but if you only eat fish and chicken then there's no proven amount that's bad for you.

I was going to mention eggs, cheese, beans, tofu, yogurt and nuts to name a few.

Most of the world can't eat dairy. Eggs contain protein and cholesterol, so if you consume too much you may be consuming too much cholesterol so they can't be your only source of protein. Tofu is processed soy and contains all the antitoxins, so it's a very bad idea to over consume it or to use it as a substitute for meat.

Lactose intolerance is the norm and lactose persistence is the mutated gene. So for people like me, dairy is great. But for most people, who can't metabolize lactose, you'll get sick just like most adult cats would (if you have an adult cat that you know has lactose persistence you can give it plenty of milk though just like humans).

Many people have other food sensitivities. Some people can't eat gluten, some people can't eat nuts, some people can't eat foods containing soy. And there are yet others too including fish and eggs.

We're not in disagreement about what has more protein, I think you're kind of missing the point of my post. Let me give you a hypothetical. If we were able to get our protein in the same way as we do with meat, could you ween yourself from meat someday? From what I've been reading into, we will likely have the ability to grow meat in the lab with simple cells or some other modified way.

Let me give you a hypothetical: it's been proven that plant-based diets lower cholesterol. Cholesterol deficiency causes anxiety, depression, anger and aggression. How does a vegan go about correcting a dangerously low cholesterol level?

Nobody ever said two similar foods were the same, that's your straw man.

You claimed that animal products are not the only source of high quality protein, I proved otherwise. Furthermore there are countless examples, as in my OP, of people who could not build muscle on fully vegan diets no matter what they did or what supplements they took.

[fr0d0]

Unfounded assertion it would seem. Unless you can back up what you say about grain especially, and the fact that meat is protein rich.

A religious person crying unfounded claim, oh the irony. Can you not get protein from beans and other alternatives like soy? Your lack of imagination or education on nutrition is not an unfounded assertion by me.

If you wanted me to explain further I could have, but Coffee Jesus already did that for you a bit.

I hear the sound of you eating your words

[Coffee Jesus]

There's a lot of processed soy crap out there. Prove that unprocessed soy, like edamame, is poison.

Raw soy is toxic to all carnivores and omnivores. It's only non-toxic to herbivores.

Proof: The Health Dangers of Soy by Dr. Joseph Mercola

Now, since we know soy is toxic the onus of proof on whether processed soy is "safe to eat in moderate amounts" is on the one making the claim, and so far it has not been proven.

Wikipedia - Joseph Mercola
''A 2006 BusinessWeek editorial called his marketing practices as "relying on slick promotion, clever use of information, and scare tactics."[3] In 2005, 2006, and 2011, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration warned Mercola and his company to stop making illegal claims regarding his products' ability to detect, prevent and treat disease.[7] The medical watchdog site Quackwatch has criticized Mercola for making "unsubstantiated claims and clash with those of leading medical and public health organizations [and making] many unsubstantiated recommendations for dietary supplements."[7]''

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There are vegans that took oral B12 supplements and came to a point where their doctors told them the only way that they can continue their vegan diets is with intravenous B12, administered twice a year or so. That's why a lot of vegans that know about this are unable to tell you which B12 supplement to take to avoid B12 deficiency because the tablets have been proven not to work for everyone; just like how we have no drugs whatsoever that are effective for managing obesity - and in fact the drugs that have been on the market previously have been withdrawn.

You do realize you're at odds with National Institutes of Health on this? You never responded to this:

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Vitamin...fessional/

"Existing evidence does not suggest any differences among forms with respect to absorption or bioavailability. However the body’s ability to absorb vitamin B12 from dietary supplements is largely limited by the capacity of intrinsic factor. For example, only about 10 mcg of a 500 mcg oral supplement is actually absorbed in healthy people [8]."

*note that 10 mcg is more than 4x the recommended daily allowance for adults.

As long as it's a biologically active form of B12, and as long as you have intrinsic factor, you will be able to absorb it. The form doesn't matter.
If somebody had to have it injected, maybe they weren't producing enough intrinsic factor.

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Which is why I suggested a balanced diet, there are drawbacks to every diet you try. If you exclusively ate meat or mostly ate meat you'd have horrible problems if not worse problems that if you were vegan or mostly vegan. And while a balanced diet is the best we can do currently, can we at least agree that meat is far from the most needed food group.

Eliminating an entire food group (or two, counting dairy separately) is not a balanced diet. Furthermore your comparison is uneven: meat is one food group out of five, and someone who eats only meat is eliminating four out of the five food groups. A vegan is eliminating two entire food groups: meat and dairy, that is not balanced. A paleo eliminates grain entirely, that also may not be balanced.

Meat is not a food group. The Food Guide Pyramid labels it Meat & beans, but the image also includes nuts and eggs in that area. It does include dairy as a food group, but the Harvard Healthy Eating Pyramid says "Dairy or vitamin D/Calcium supplements". However, there are some vegetables high in calcium, and mushrooms (a fungus) have vitamin D.

Hmm, but Harvard considers "Fish, Poultry, and Eggs" a unique food group.