Deism

[beamo1080]

I've been doing some thinking about deism recently, and I've come to the conclusion that deists are atheists in denial. When it comes to the non-descript god of deists it seems to me to be an unfalsifiable hypothesis. Generally an unfalsifiable hypothesis is called such because there really is no way to present evidence against it, because of its enigmous nature, therefore, it is illogical to stand by it as a conclusion, because at the same time, there isn't any evidence in support of the idea either. So the fact that people still adhere to a belief in god even after separating themselves from religion raises the question: why?

I believe it is a demonstration of anti-atheist views throughout our culture. Deists, and pantheists or agnostics for that matter, are trying, even after realising that they don't belong within the ranks of religion, desperately to be anything but an atheist.

That's just my idea; what do you guys think?

[Minimalist]

There are some superb deist posters here.

I've told them that deists are atheists who can't let go with both hands.

But they are head and shoulders better than theists.

[beamo1080]

That's for sure. I've nothing against deists personally I feel the same way about them as theists; that their beliefs are illogical and unsound.

[Rampant.A.I.]

Dogma is the only thing that really bothers me. I have close friends who are deists, Christians, and some who are Evangelical, Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish.

I respect people who have their faith, don't take it too fire & brimstone seriously, and aren't trying to convert you at every opportunity.

Some of them read the Bible as an historical document that contains thousands of years of cultural experience and general life rules, and apply them with in reason with consideration to the time period.

Praise God. It doesn't bother me. The only time their beliefs bother me is when they use them to be willfully ignorant, which thankfully, I'm not surrounded by people who do that.

I've even heard people describe "faith" as a general attitude or belief that things will work out, and no matter how many obstacles there are, the solution is just around the corner.

If someone wants to call the incredible beauty and complexity of the world we live in as "God," that's fine. I've always been the optimistic order-from-chaos type.

Just don't start telling me lists of what your God wants me to do, because in my experience, the people who really need a cheat sheet are the ones who worry me.

[Napoléon]

Deists, and pantheists or agnostics for that matter, are trying, even after realising that they don't belong within the ranks of religion, desperately to be anything but an atheist.

This is strangely probably true. I've always thought it odd that Neil DeGrasse Tyson would refuse to identify as an atheist, even when he so clearly is one. He uses the term 'agnostic' instead. It's the biggest thing that annoys me with him, the two terms aren't mutually exclusive but he uses them in such a way. It's actually bordering on intellectual dishonesty IMO.

[JesusHChrist]

Oh those deists are the worst!

All the not hanging out in airports, proselytizing, the not yelling on street corners wearing a sandwich board saying "believe in the creator! He doesn't give a shit about you!", the non-existent attempts to control politics.

Yeah, those deist bastards need to be brought down!

Truth be told, I, JHC, am a recovering deist. (Hangs head in shame.)

[ThePinsir]

I think it's some "god of the gaps" thinking. They realize that, say, Christianity is bull shit. But they can't workout how the universe can exist without a god-of-sorts, and so they make up a deistic god.

[DeistPaladin]

So the fact that people still adhere to a belief in god even after separating themselves from religion raises the question: why?

Thanks for asking. I say this because some atheists seem to rush to judgment or do nothing more than glance at the dictionary definition. Richard Dawkins in "The God Delusion" defined deism as "watered down theism" using only a deeply flawed definition from a dictionary as his basis. Those who are familiar with my posts can tell you, what I have in common with the theists is we both use the word "God" (meaning radically different things by the use of the word) and the similarity ends there.

In practice, deism is atheism with poetic flourishes.

How I live my life, evaluate morality, gain a sense of meaning, relate to others, sleep in on Sunday, etc. would not change if I were to ever shift to atheism. At one point in my activism in the Freethought movement, I was the organizer of the Louisville Atheists and Freethinkers. I've always believed in unity among freethinkers of all stripes, including pantheists, agnostics, atheists and some transcendentalists (the ones that aren't into the New Age woo).

For me, deism is a balance between my skeptical mind and sentimental (proverbial) heart. It's a way to have such "spiritual" instincts and yet keep it all grounded in the natural universe. Fortunately, the natural universe is actually more inspiring than anything religion offers. As Dawkins has noted, religions create petty gods.

I remember once coming out of the New York Planetarium with my extended family on Sunday morning. In an impolitic moment on my part, I blurted out the rhetorical question "why would anyone waste their time in a church?" within earshot of my Christian sister (she's the anomaly in our non-religious family). Hitchens once put it more bluntly, asking who's going to look through the Hubble telescope and then go back to the burning bush.

I recognize the logical problems that you discuss with the non-falsifiability of Nature's God. That part of deism is more instinct for me. I observe the universe and I see a grand machine. I reflect on the development of human evolution, including not just the enlarging cranial capacity but all the other things that came together which made our civilization possible, and I see intent.

The instinctive part of deism is probably why, from what I've observed from deists online and their stories they relate to me, so few ever seem to "convert" to deism, at least with any stability. Any time I hear of an ex-Christian or ex-Muslim making such a switch, I can predict they'll identify as "atheist" within a few years. Deism is usually just a way-station in their deconversion from religion. The cold, uncaring Nature's God must seem like a poor substitute for the loving security blanket that Jesus represents. As with Honey Badger, Nature's God don't give a shit.

Those who identify as deists and remain so relate the same story that was my experience. As with my sexual orientation, I didn't change. I discovered that's what I've been all along. Prior, I'd identified as "agnostic". Coincidentally, I made both self-discoveries around the same time in my life, not that I think they have anything to do with one another.

At one point, the truce between my skeptical and sentimental sides was uneasy. I went through a two week period where I wondered what was wrong with me, why I couldn't be a normal atheist like most of my friends and family. I came to terms that the difference is instinctive, as I elaborated above, and have so come to terms with my dual nature.

Btw, I put "spiritual" above in quotes because I don't actually believe in an afterlife. One might exist for all I know but I have trouble wrapping my mind around the idea of consciousness without a brain. I still use the term "spirit" as a metaphor for the very real process of self-awareness and experience in the natural universe. By "spiritual" I mean more emotional well-being, desire to grow and general awe of the natural universe. Like Sam Harris, I think religion has claimed a monopoly on matters that can be explored and utilized without the woo.

Oddly enough, my wife is an atheist who believes in ghosts, sort of my mirror opposite, so that shows there are all kinds in the freethought camp.

I have offered some arguments for deism over atheism, namely my "homosexuality proves God" line. Atheists find it completely unconvincing but it does have the advantage of being a deist argument that Christians aren't likely to hijack any time soon.

Hope this helps. I'll gladly answer any follow up questions.

[beamo1080]

[quote='beamo1080' pid='682450' dateline='1402035461']

For me, deism is a balance between my skeptical mind and sentimental (proverbial) heart. It's a way to have such "spiritual" instincts and yet keep it all grounded in the natural universe.

But at that point, why even call it god?

And spirituality, for me, anyway, has never really dealled with the supernatural, only the wonders of the universe and the ability of humans to understand such complex things yet still have to say "We don't know" on a lot of occasions.

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Oh those deists are the worst!

All the not hanging out in airports, proselytizing, the not yelling on street corners wearing a sandwich board saying "believe in the creator! He doesn't give a shit about you!", the non-existent attempts to control politics.

Yeah, those deist bastards need to be brought down!

Truth be told, I, JHC, am a recovering deist. (Hangs head in shame.)

Hold your horses there! I never said a malicious word towards any deist. I respect their freethinking as much as the next guy.

[DeistPaladin]

But at that point, why even call it god?

Because of what I wrote:

...I observe the universe and I see a grand machine. I reflect on the development of human evolution, including not just the enlarging cranial capacity but all the other things that came together which made our civilization possible, and I see intent.

The philosophical distinction with atheism is whether or not there's anything at the wheel of this car. Maybe I'm wrong and we hit the cosmic lottery. I think one indication might be once we venture out there if we find much in the way of intelligent life and other civilizations. For the deist model to hold, I would expect we'd find we're not the only petri dish in God's lab. If it is just us, the cosmic lottery looks like a stronger explanation.

By the way, I often use the petri dish analogy to communicate what I think is a more believable scenario where God exists. I joke about the two bacteria cells talking to each other and one says, "let me tell you about the personal relationship I have with The Great Labcoat in the sky."