Confessions

[emjay]

I confess that one day I was very frustrated with moths - who were plaguing my room night after night - so when I had caught one in a transparent plastic box with a lid, instead of letting it go out the window as usual, on that occasion I decided out of malicious anger to leave it in the box, all night, to die. But I wasn't prepared for what I saw when I woke up the next day. I expected it to be dead and it was but the walls of the box were a mess with I can only guess was moth-shit all over them. So if anything convinced me that insects (possibly) have consciousness it was that; it basically looked as if the moth had done what any conscious creature would do in the same situation... panic and frantically try and escape, perhaps shitting itself in terror in the process as it frantically headbutted the walls. Anyway that callous act has haunted me ever since... the needless suffering that I wilfully caused to a sentient being

[Arkilogue]

I confess that one day I was very frustrated with moths - who were plaguing my room night after night - so when I had caught one in a transparent plastic box with a lid, instead of letting it go out the window as usual, on that occasion I decided out of malicious anger to leave it in the box, all night, to die. But I wasn't prepared for what I saw when I woke up the next day. I expected it to be dead and it was but the walls of the box were a mess with I can only guess was moth-shit all over them. So if anything convinced me that insects (possibly) have consciousness it was that; it basically looked as if the moth had done what any conscious creature would do in the same situation... panic and frantically try and escape, perhaps shitting itself in terror in the process as it frantically headbutted the walls. Anyway that callous act has haunted me ever since... the needless suffering that I wilfully caused to a sentient being

I hear ya... When I worked commercial landscaping I had to blow parking lots clean before sunrise. And I mean clean of ALL gravelly debris. So you end up with a line of grit, traveling across the lot like a slow but deadly rock and glass storm to the poor earth worms that were just out for their morning stretch. I felt bad for them, picked up each one I found and put them in the grass.

Sometimes I wonder about all the tiny little soil creatures for whom my random piss outside is the world ending Great Yellow Deluge.

[emjay]

I confess that one day I was very frustrated with moths - who were plaguing my room night after night - so when I had caught one in a transparent plastic box with a lid, instead of letting it go out the window as usual, on that occasion I decided out of malicious anger to leave it in the box, all night, to die. But I wasn't prepared for what I saw when I woke up the next day. I expected it to be dead and it was but the walls of the box were a mess with I can only guess was moth-shit all over them. So if anything convinced me that insects (possibly) have consciousness it was that; it basically looked as if the moth had done what any conscious creature would do in the same situation... panic and frantically try and escape, perhaps shitting itself in terror in the process as it frantically headbutted the walls. Anyway that callous act has haunted me ever since... the needless suffering that I wilfully caused to a sentient being

I hear ya... When I worked commercial landscaping I had to blow parking lots clean before sunrise. And I mean clean of ALL gravelly debris. So you end up with a line of grit, traveling across the lot like a slow but deadly rock and glass storm to the poor earth worms that were just out for their morning stretch. I felt bad for them, picked up each one I found and put them in the grass.

Sometimes I wonder about all the tiny little soil creatures for whom my random piss outside is the world ending Great Yellow Deluge.

That's sweet... I'm glad I repped you

I'm aware in this situation that there's a possibility that they don't have consciousness and the empathy that comes for them comes from attributing human emotions and agency to them. Are they complex enough to have consciousness or are they philosophical zombies? That is the (rhetorical) question. But perhaps since you could never know, the default position should be to assume that all animals, no matter what size, have consciousness. Maybe as long as it has to represent state, and self-as-centre-of-multiple-sensations that's all that's needed? Who knows.

[Silver]

I confess that I am easily manipulated by those in positions of power.

[emjay]

I confess that I am easily manipulated by those in positions of power.

I can't imagine that. You've always seemed to me about as independent in thought as you can get... a leader rather than a follower.

[Silver]

I can't imagine that. You've always seemed to me about as independent in thought as you can get... a leader rather than a follower.

How I am online is no reflection of how I am in real life. Online, I am free to be a braver extension of myself, someone that would never be accepted in real life.

[Arkilogue]

I hear ya...  When I worked commercial landscaping I had to blow parking lots clean before sunrise.  And I mean clean of ALL gravelly debris. So you end up with a line of grit, traveling across the lot like a slow but deadly rock and glass storm to the poor earth worms that were just out for their morning stretch. I felt bad for them, picked up each one I found and put them in the grass.

Sometimes I wonder about all the tiny little soil creatures for whom my random piss outside is the world ending Great Yellow Deluge.

That's sweet... I'm glad I repped you

I'm aware in this situation that there's a possibility that they don't have consciousness and the empathy that comes for them comes from attributing human emotions and agency to them. Are they complex enough to have consciousness or are they philosophical zombies? That is the (rhetorical) question. But perhaps since you could never know, the default position should be to assume that all animals, no matter what size, have consciousness. Maybe as long as it has to represent state, and self-as-centre-of-multiple-sensations that's all that's needed? Who knows.

I imagine it works very much the same way with less complex life forms with no "self" consciousness needed. The physiological "environmental" consciousness of the body itself squirts out reactive hormones due to external stimuli. Like if you just see a tiger stick it's head out of the bushes 20 ft and it locks eyes with you...your body is going to flood with adrenaline and cortisol.

I'd imagine what ever kind of electric feedback mechanism that serves as their rudimentary consciousness gets swept up in similar, fight or flight hormone storms just as surely as we do.

[emjay]

I can't imagine that. You've always seemed to me about as independent in thought as you can get... a leader rather than a follower.

How I am online is no reflection of how I am in real life. Online, I am free to be a braver extension of myself, someone that would never be accepted in real life.

Ah I see. I guess I'm the same but I do tend to - and probably erroneously in most cases - assume that people's online character is the same as their offline character. I'm sorry if you feel more oppressed IRL

[Silver]

I'm sorry if you feel more oppressed IRL

It is not that I feel oppressed in real life so much as finding people in real life who can accept me as I am without contemporary judgment clouding their preconceive notions of how a person should behave.

[emjay]

That's sweet... I'm glad I repped you

I'm aware in this situation that there's a possibility that they don't have consciousness and the empathy that comes for them comes from attributing human emotions and agency to them. Are they complex enough to have consciousness or are they philosophical zombies? That is the (rhetorical) question. But perhaps since you could never know, the default position should be to assume that all animals, no matter what size, have consciousness. Maybe as long as it has to represent state, and self-as-centre-of-multiple-sensations that's all that's needed? Who knows.

I imagine it works very much the same way with less complex life forms with no "self" consciousness needed. The physiological "environmental" consciousness of the body itself squirts out reactive hormones due to external stimuli. Like if you just see a tiger stick it's head out of the bushes 20 ft and it locks eyes with you...your body is going to flood with adrenaline and cortisol.

I'd imagine what ever kind of electric feedback mechanism that serves as their rudimentary consciousness gets swept up in similar, fight or flight hormone storms just as surely as we do.

Yeah, that's the problem - it would make just as much sense for it to be a purely physiological/reflexive response so no indicator of the presence or absence of consciousness. So again, perhaps best to just assume consciousness in all animals even if it could never be disproven.