God is love. God is just. God is merciful.

[Michael B]

Chad, it's interesting that you assume all punishment is the same. That's certainly not the Judeo-Christian tradition. Dante, for example, has the 'nine circles of hell' in his famous 'Inferno' (with each experience of hell being particular to the sins of that person). Jewish tradition held to seven levels to hell/heaven. There's an Easten Orthodox tradition that heaven and hell are the same - in the full presence of God (to some it is heaven, but to others it is hell, and the extent of that hell is in proportion to the extent of the rebellion against God).

[Chad32]

Chad, it's interesting that you assume all punishment is the same. That's certainly not the Judeo-Christian tradition. Dante, for example, has the 'nine circles of hell' in his famous 'Inferno' (with each experience of hell being particular to the sins of that person). Jewish tradition held to seven levels to hell/heaven. There's an Easten Orthodox tradition that heaven and hell are the same - in the full presence of God (to some it is heaven, but to others it is hell, and the extent of that hell is in proportion to the extent of the rebellion against God).

Is there a passage in the bible that mentions different levels of hell? Perhaps the reason Dante came up with the idea of different levels is because you can't justify putting everyone in the same spot to give them the same punishment. Although some people will say the lake of fire isn't exactly biblical, but most christians lean that way.

Not that there aren't other unjust things done in the bible. If we want to move away from hell, we can talk about killing babies and children for the crimes of others, or punishing people to the seventh generation. I think most people should agree that inflicting pain on someone for something they had nothing to do with is unjust.

[Chas]

First, we need evidence that there is a god.

Second, we need evidence that anyone has knowledge of this god.

Third, we need evidence that the knowledge is accurate and reliable.


I'll wait.

[Michael B]

Chad. If you want to go by the bible alone (that's not my tradition) then you can't assert any number of levels of hell, including one. If you are interested in historical and traditional Juduasim and Christianity then you'll find lots of thoughts on different punishments that 'fit the crime'.

But if you come from a tradition that says 'same punishment for all' then I'm not a person who can really speak to that, so I'll quietly leave it there.

[Chad32]

The bible is the only source of information we have on this god. Lots of people have different interpretations. That's obvious from the fact that it's split into three different religions and different groups from each of those religions. If you're going to give the same validity to things outside the bible, then what's the point of the bible? The whole thing is a giant mess, and it seems impossible to come to a consensus on what Yahweh is, and what he wants.

I have heard that the only thing the bible really says is that our souls will be destroyed if we don't go to heaven. Cessation of existence. Which is pretty much what atheists believe will happen to us anyway. That's not much motivation to convert.

[Michael B]

Fair enough Chad. I don't come from a 'sola scriptura' background so can't really go down that route with you. But I quite understand that if that's the tradition you came from then you'll probably naturally frame things in that way. But I'm not the one to address issues from that perspective.

[genkaus]

Maybe the question should be to whom God is loving, merciful and just?

And the answer would be no-one - since mercy is suspension of justice. And that would be the case for one of the better versions of god - your god, as you describe him, is monstrosity of injustice.

---

I think when we talk about love, justice and mercy, then those words should have a consistency when we use them, whether we are talking about God or a person. So I would say the love of God reflects God's desire for goodness for us, God's justice reflects fair judgement of our actions, and God's mercy allows for justice to be tempered in response to genuine contrition by the guilty. For the Christian, we see and experience these attributes most clearly through walking in faith in the person and teachings of Jesus Christ, the clearest 'avatar' of God.

A desire for goodness - with no action to achieve that end. A fair judgment - with an unfair punishment. And mercy - which would be subversion of the so-called justice.

---

Boru. The way I see it is that mercy must always start from a position of justice. Without justice, mercy means nothing. So mercy is a layer on top of justice, or as Shakespeare so poetically put it, 'mercy seasons justice'. Justice starts with an eye for an eye, a life for a life. Mercy then seasons that justice and gives a new opportunity, especially to those who genuinely want to live a new life. I think we can see that layering of mercy on top of justice in our penal justice systems, certainly here in the UK.

I agree - mercy starts from justice and without justice mercy means nothing. After all, you can't detract something from nothing. Mercy is a detraction - it doesn't add a layer, it removes one - resulting in less justice than before.

[Mudhammam]

I think when we talk about love, justice and mercy, then those words should have a consistency when we use them, whether we are talking about God or a person. So I would say the love of God reflects God's desire for goodness for us, God's justice reflects fair judgement of our actions, and God's mercy allows for justice to be tempered in response to genuine contrition by the guilty. For the Christian, we see and experience these attributes most clearly through walking in faith in the person and teachings of Jesus Christ, the clearest 'avatar' of God.

"God's desire for goodness for us." Which is what? Happiness? Intellectual satisfaction with the degree to which our beliefs correspond to the totality of empirical reality? If so, it seems like an atheist is equally, and perhaps more, capable of fulfilling "God's desire" as the person guided by reason, self-introspection, and honesty cannot, if they're being true to their values, consistently find any degree of fulfillment or comfort in faith.
"God's justice reflects fair judgement of our actions." Fair judgment? Again, which is...? ...Not to be found in any Scripture that condemns all of humanity on account of their born natures and an unintelligible conception of free will.
"God's mercy allows for justice to be tempered in response to genuine contrition by the guilty." And to the believer, "genuine contrition" is tantamount to "belief that sins are forgiven on the basis of gullibility or one's disposition towards belief in ideas that have no definite meaning or evidential basis." In other words, an idea that has nothing to with genuineness or contrition to the actual object of wrong action.

I think you completely failed to offer any viable answer to Chad's OP.

[John V]

I've always failed to understand how theists can support the claim that God is both merciful and just. Aren't these two terms mutually exclusive?

By way of analogy, suppose I rob a bank. The judge sentences me to five years - this is what the law calls for and is, in the only sense that makes sense, justice. Alternatively, the judge imposes a lesser sentence - eighteen months, community service, binding over or some such. The law makes no provision for these lesser sentences, but judges (here, at least) have wide latitude in what they can impose. In this case, the judge has been merciful but not just.

It is the same way with God. If he wishes to be just, he can't forgive sins. If he wishes to be merciful, he would pardon all sinners for everything.

Which'll it be?

Boru

That's the point of the cross. The judge paid the just penalty himself, which allows him to be merciful as well.

You'll likely complain that it's not just to allow one person to pay the penalty for another. That's fine as your opinion. God sees it otherwise, and as lawmaker and judge it's his opinion that counts.

[Chad32]

That's not how justice works. You don't send an innocent person to pay the price for the guilty. Besides, if the punishment wasn't disproportionate to the crime then there's be no reason to sacrifice himself to himself.

If I went to the gates, and there was a guy I met to go over my good and bad points, and said I needed to serve time according to my deeds, why should I say no? The whole reason I didn't want to go to hell when I was young was because it was eternal torture. If it was just finite community service, I'd be happy to do it because I deserved it. I do not deserve eternal fiery torment.

So you have an innocent man temporarlly dying before going up to heaven to rule at his father's side, or to rule heaven as god if you believe jesus and Yahweh are the same guy, because the guy in charge thinks we should burn in hell or be destroyed otherwise. That's not justice. That's a publicity stunt.