The Newly Departed thread: announcements (departures)

[brewer]

We used to say we're the site for people of any faith or no faith to discuss.  (Sorry but I can't find it anywhere now and I realize the wording isn't right).  But in practice we're the site where the majority group are free to be pretty darn rude to theists and what that does is keep the discussion shallow and safe - for us.  Discussions on religious topics get highly repetitive and nearly always involve low lying fruit.  We don't get many (any?) interesting theist ideas expressed because - who would bother to try under these conditions?

The high degree of free speech we enjoy here is fine for having fun but not conducive to depthy discussion.  It just isn't.  For those looking for confirmation that believers are slow witted knuckle draggers, this is definitely the place to be since we drive anyone with any self respect away.  But I wouldn't dream of suggesting to any theist I actually find interesting that they come here.  And there is a good reason we don't try to moderate a better level of civility.  That shit is hard to do and the job would be way too onerous to do for free. 

There are thoughtful people here and definitely sharper knives than me so I can still have a good time and now and then actually learn something new.  But it really does get repetitive so I find myself exploring other sites.  Only the xtian ones seem to take on civility but of course most fail miserably.  

Ah well, the family here is still less disfunctional than the one I started out in, as well as being a hell of a lot more fun.

Got to disagree on this one. IRL I get shit from the xters on a routine basis, most thru ignorance because they assume everyone is an xter, others thru false entitlement believing I'm somehow less than them. AF is my escape, my therapy, to allow me to behave and speak in a way not allowed in my usual circles. If the xters feel abused, well then welcome to my little slice of hell.

I don't see to many xters come here without an agenda or want an actual discussion. The very few that do show up and are respectful, I'll return that respect. But even then, that initial respect often fades (maybe because of us, maybe not).

Did you not see the behavior that came out when they were given a "safe" space?

[Fake Messiah]

Discussions on religious topics get highly repetitive and nearly always involve low lying fruit. We don't get many (any?) interesting theist ideas expressed because - who would bother to try under these conditions?

I do agree that religious topics get too repetitive but I really wonder do theists have any interesting ideas anymore? I think I heard all the arguments and that's why religious topics get repetitive. I mean I watched some "God's Not Dead" movies, I heard William Lane Craig and those are rehashing and forcing the same old things. The Cosmic Argument, The Argument From Beauty, The Nature Is Too Complicated Argument etc. plus there are theists here that think how slavery is a good thing, that gay people are sick, six day creation, that women should cover their heads - but yeah don't be rude to them because they may have some interesting ideas they are afraid to express.

[Whateverist]

Discussions on religious topics get highly repetitive and nearly always involve low lying fruit.  We don't get many (any?) interesting theist ideas expressed because - who would bother to try under these conditions?

I do agree that religious topics get too repetitive but I really wonder do theists have any interesting ideas anymore? I think I heard all the arguments and that's why religious topics get repetitive. I mean I watched some "God's Not Dead" movies, I heard William Lane Craig and those are rehashing and forcing the same old things. The Cosmic Argument, The Argument From Beauty, The Nature Is Too Complicated Argument etc. plus there are theists here that think how slavery is a good thing, that gay people are sick, six day creation, that women should cover their heads - but yeah don't be rude to them because they may have some interesting ideas they are afraid to express.

Yeah unfortunately apologetics is pretty much the only way xtians want to relate to atheists, but I don't have anything to say to those people.  They needn't bother because I have no interest in hearing unsolicited sales pitches generally and certainly not for what they're pedaling.  Apparently they think they have been charged by God with spreading the word and they're willing to suffer any kind of abuse for the sake of making that pitch.  I don't enjoy slamming my door in their face but fuck them for feeling entitled to my attention.  There are no good arguments for god belief and the only xtians I want to talk to are the ones who acknowledge that going in.  They do exist but they don't come here and they have no more interest in hearing unsolicited arguments against god belief than we have in what the missionaries have to say.  So to have an interesting conversation with a believer requires that you find the ones who aren't looking for you and that you approach them with respect.  I don't feel great about myself when I'm rude to other people so I sometimes just need to avoid this place.  But then nonbelievers are in the great majority where I live and no one except crazies is openly blabbing for Christ.  If I was surrounded by that shit I'm sure I'd feel differently .. but I don't want to feel differently.

[Shell B]

How does one have a meaningful discussion with someone who has no intention other than to wallpaper the place with pages from their particular book of fairy tales?  Fuck that shit.  If they want to discuss history that's fine.  I'm all in.  But pretending that any of this god shit is real is simply a bridge too far.

Exactly. I'm mostly polite about it or avoid the religious discussions altogether because I'm an atheist, but in order to take any of these discussions seriously, we have to entertain the idea that they might be correct, which is preposterous. I'll discuss unicorns with little girls as if they're real, but I will not do the same for adults without special needs. Moreover, they consider "attacks" on god as insulting, so how are they ever going to consider us civil, even when we're wearing our best Sunday clothes to the party? Finally, they completely brush off the utter rudeness parsed out by members like A Theist or Alpha Male on a regular basis, acting all fucking shocked that some atheists would dare to be rude to them when they have utter cunts on their "team" talking down to us all the time. The hypocrisy is laid on fucking thick, so if they're too blind to see that, they can sod off and stay that way.

[Angrboda]

How does one have a meaningful discussion with someone who has no intention other than to wallpaper the place with pages from their particular book of fairy tales?  Fuck that shit.  If they want to discuss history that's fine.  I'm all in.  But pretending that any of this god shit is real is simply a bridge too far.

Exactly. I'm mostly polite about it or avoid the religious discussions altogether because I'm an atheist, but in order to take any of these discussions seriously, we have to entertain the idea that they might be correct, which is preposterous. I'll discuss unicorns with little girls as if they're real, but I will not do the same for adults without special needs. Moreover, they consider "attacks" on god as insulting, so how are they ever going to consider us civil, even when we're wearing our best Sunday clothes to the party? Finally, they completely brush off the utter rudeness parsed out by members like A Theist or Alpha Male on a regular basis, acting all fucking shocked that some atheists would dare to be rude to them when they have utter cunts on their "team" talking down to us all the time. The hypocrisy is laid on fucking thick, so if they're too blind to see that, they can sod off and stay that way.

I would agree with that up to the point that you hold them accountable for what members of "their team" do. That they do the same in reverse doesn't justify doing so. I can bring team into it when the discussion really is about their team, meaning Christians or Christianity as a whole. But justifying your behavior based on some people they are associated with is not such a discussion.

Me, for my part, I love debating religion. It's the other bits I sometimes get bored with. (Though lately I've had a general malaise infect my interest in debate overall.)

[Shell B]

You're mistaking my point, probably because I didn't make it well. It's not that I hold them personally responsible for the behavior of members of their "team," it's that I find it ridiculous that they'll paint this entire website as hostile to theists based on a few members while ignoring that there are also hostile theists that rile the handful or so of actually hostile atheists here. They ignore the atheists that actually give their far-fetched discussions careful time and consideration while painting themselves as a completely blameless group in this continued bickering. There are as many awful theists here as there are rude atheists.

For the record, I'm not justifying "my" behavior or anyone's based on theirs. I'd be surprised if you can find a thread where I tear into theists that is about religion. I mainly get into it about specific political topics. I'm simply pointing out hypocrisy. I never once said "It's okay that people call them fucking morons without engaging them since they have assholes too." My point is that I find it stupid that their excuse for leaving is the meanies while they ignore the very meanies that left with them.

[Whateverist]

You're mistaking my point, probably because I didn't make it well. It's not that I hold them personally responsible for the behavior of members of their "team," it's that I find it ridiculous that they'll paint this entire website as hostile to theists based on a few members while ignoring that there are also hostile theists that rile the handful or so of actually hostile atheists here. They ignore the atheists that actually give their far-fetched discussions careful time and consideration while painting themselves as a completely blameless group in this continued bickering. There are as many awful theists here as there are rude atheists.

For the record, I'm not justifying "my" behavior or anyone's based on theirs. I'd be surprised if you can find a thread where I tear into theists that is about religion. I mainly get into it about specific political topics. I'm simply pointing out hypocrisy. I never once said "It's okay that people call them fucking morons without engaging them since they have assholes too." My point is that I find it stupid that their excuse for leaving is the meanies while they ignore the very meanies that left with them.

Also for the record, I'm pretty sure C_L leaving (if she has) has nothing to do with your behavior.  She always struck me as fond of both you and the Tibster.  She only mentioned the repetiveness and the inability to have a discussion where anyone risks anything because they are immediately put on the defensive.  And to be fair I was the one who brought it up in discussing my own ambivalence about that aspect of this place.  I don't think we're any worse than the population as a whole, and I definitely prefer us to self righteous religious schmucks who think they're on the good side even as they act like complete alpha-males assholes.

[mlmooney89]

She's gone through a lot in her personal life. Some people need to stop being petty and try being more understanding about someone else's sadness.

I've perfected the art of understanding what someone has been through and still disliking the person.  Isn't that what we all do in life anyway?

There is no way you will EVER know what it is like to have life growing in you only to learn that it died. You can have all the bad things in the world happen to you but it will never be equivalent (not saying worse or better you just will never understand that feeling)

When I first came here, I was more interested in the atheist part of AF, but that got old quickly. Like, really quickly. Now I just come here for entertainment and to see differing POVs on politics. I think the majority here is intelligent, articulate, and thoughtful, which is why I like it here. Just because many of us are atheists, doesn't mean we have similar opinions on most other things, or even about atheism and theism, and that's what keeps it interesting. If I was a theist, I'd probably still stick around for the same reasons, and not for any meaningful conversation about faith. 

Agreed! I came here to rant about the religious nuts and feel like I'm with people of like mind but there is only so much you can say about religion and 99% of the topics I look at here now are about getting to know each other as people, politics, entertainment etc. Very few are religious anymore.

I do agree that religious topics get too repetitive but I really wonder do theists have any interesting ideas anymore? I think I heard all the arguments and that's why religious topics get repetitive.

Nail on the head. I think this is why I stopped with the religious threads. They aren't bringing fresh conversation to us they are just spitting out the same thing over and over. If they would just read through the already made threads they could see the debates and conversations without bothering us.

[Whateverist]

Though lately I've had a general malaise infect my interest in debate overall.

Welcome to my world. Too bad though because you're so good at it. I'd put you and Khem up against anyone on the other side. But I'd only pay to watch if they actually had anyone of your caliber on the other side.

[Fake Messiah]

I do agree that religious topics get too repetitive but I really wonder do theists have any interesting ideas anymore? I think I heard all the arguments and that's why religious topics get repetitive.

Nail on the head. I think this is why I stopped with the religious threads. They aren't bringing fresh conversation to us they are just spitting out the same thing over and over. If they would just read through the already made threads they could see the debates and conversations without bothering us.

That's why, I guess, people on this forum have their expiration date. If I look at the posts in back to several years ago I see almost completely different cast of characters or should I say users. People come here, run their circles, say what they have and move on. And, also, I must admit that my own expiration date, for some reason or the other, on forums is usually four years, will this be longer - who knows.

Also, the thing is that religious people don't have any logical reason for believing in god. They pretend they do here because they think it makes them look more intellectual. So when they roll out their twisted logic here atheists point the faults to them and they usually ignore it or simply insist that they're right or just switch to the "I feel god" argument, because the reason they believe in god is their parents and family. So there is nothing left for atheists then to ridicule them and then theists get offended because they feel like their whole family is being ridiculed and so on.