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RE: The God of Convenience
January 3, 2015 at 3:33 pm
(This post was last modified: January 3, 2015 at 3:34 pm by Mudhammam.)
(January 3, 2015 at 3:00 pm)Lek Wrote: (January 3, 2015 at 2:56 pm)dyresand Wrote: He did exist....
Born 428/427 or 424/423 BCE (BCE Before chicken existed)
Athens
Died 348/347 BCE (aged c. 80) (BCE Before chicken existed)
Athens
http://www.ancient.eu/plato/
read up.
Why do believe this? Because a lot of people wrote about him, we have dozens of his own works, and we witness philosophers writing down their ideas all the time. Is this hard?
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: The God of Convenience
January 3, 2015 at 3:43 pm
(This post was last modified: January 3, 2015 at 3:45 pm by Lek.)
(January 3, 2015 at 3:33 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: (January 3, 2015 at 3:00 pm)Lek Wrote: Why do believe this? Because a lot of people wrote about him, we have dozens of his own works, and we witness philosophers writing down their ideas all the time. Is this hard?
No. I's not hard and I'm willing to accept most of that evidence. It shows that you also believe in the existence of persons based on that type of unscientific evidence. We have the same type of evidence for Jesus, except there's more and it's more recent.
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RE: The God of Convenience
January 3, 2015 at 3:47 pm
(January 3, 2015 at 3:43 pm)Lek Wrote: We have the same type of evidence for Jesus.
There is no evidence for Jesus' existence.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
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RE: The God of Convenience
January 3, 2015 at 3:59 pm
(This post was last modified: January 3, 2015 at 4:08 pm by Lek.)
(January 3, 2015 at 3:47 pm)Sionnach Wrote: (January 3, 2015 at 3:43 pm)Lek Wrote: We have the same type of evidence for Jesus.
There is no evidence for Jesus' existence.
There's not? What about the enormous number of writings attesting to his existence? What evidence do we have that Plato existed? How about evidence for Socrates?
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RE: The God of Convenience
January 3, 2015 at 4:12 pm
I'm willing to believe an historical Jesus probably existed. We even have present day data to that effect:
![[Image: jesus-big-l.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.ingwarperton.nl%2Fdata%2Fgallery%2FAquarellen%2Fthumb%2Fjesus-big-l.jpg)
But the miracles constitute extreme claims which call for extraordinary evidence. A DVD, blueray, heck even an SD VHS tape from that era would be endlessly more convincing than what shows every evidence of being a cobbled together set of inconsistent texts by a bunch of self interested clerics with an agenda to scam and fleece their flocks in the first century and thereafter.
The canonical gospels are true because olden days Jews didn't trust women and women provided the evidence for the empty tomb? The data is most reliable because it was provided by witnesses considered the least reliable? Give me a break.
So how, exactly, does God know that She's NOT a brain in a vat? 
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RE: The God of Convenience
January 3, 2015 at 4:15 pm
(January 3, 2015 at 3:59 pm)Lek Wrote: (January 3, 2015 at 3:47 pm)Sionnach Wrote: There is no evidence for Jesus' existence.
There's not? What about the enormous number of writings attesting to his existence? What evidence do we have that Plato existed? How about evidence for Socrates? If anyone bothers to link actual facts to them, are you going to accept them as fact? Why don't you and I, here and now, actually attempt to dig up proof for both Jesus and Plato, and see which is more convincing?
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RE: The God of Convenience
January 3, 2015 at 4:25 pm
(January 3, 2015 at 4:15 pm)bennyboy Wrote: If anyone bothers to link actual facts to them, are you going to accept them as fact? Why don't you and I, here and now, actually attempt to dig up proof for both Jesus and Plato, and see which is more convincing?
I think we've examined the evidence for Jesus quite thoroughly in the this forum. I don't have to dig up all the new testament writings as well as the non-canonical writings, although I will present them as evidence. So what re your "actual facts" to prove the existence of Plato; or better yet, Socrates if you believe he existed. Actually, he's a better example than Plato.
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RE: The God of Convenience
January 3, 2015 at 4:33 pm
(January 3, 2015 at 4:25 pm)Lek Wrote: I think we've examined the evidence for Jesus quite thoroughly in the this forum.
Yes, the bible, apologist literature and a few roman authors, who more or less say that christians believed in Jesus, which isn't that much of a surprise or evidence. And a few forgeries by christian scribes to go with that.
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RE: The God of Convenience
January 3, 2015 at 4:40 pm
(This post was last modified: January 3, 2015 at 4:41 pm by Lek.)
(January 3, 2015 at 4:12 pm)JuliaL Wrote: The canonical gospels are true because olden days Jews didn't trust women and women provided the evidence for the empty tomb? The data is most reliable because it was provided by witnesses considered the least reliable? Give me a break.
One of the reasons I believe the Gospels are true because they are so widely attested to by people who lived during his lifetime and so soon after. But you are right. There are many aspects to them that show good reason for them not to be fabricated stories. I mean really! The awaited messiah that was to save Israel was a poor preacher, with no army to fight for him? Most of his followers turned on him and demanded that he be crucified? If I was to write a convincing story, I'd have to do better than that. How could a story like this have possibly the largest influence on the modern western world? Could you say that a large majority of the people that made us what we are today are stupid?
(January 3, 2015 at 4:33 pm)abaris Wrote: (January 3, 2015 at 4:25 pm)Lek Wrote: I think we've examined the evidence for Jesus quite thoroughly in the this forum.
Yes, the bible, apologist literature and a few roman authors, who more or less say that christians believed in Jesus, which isn't that much of a surprise or evidence. And a few forgeries by christian scribes to go with that.
Okay. Will someone please present the evidence for Plato and Socrates?
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RE: The God of Convenience
January 3, 2015 at 5:21 pm
(January 3, 2015 at 3:43 pm)Lek Wrote: (January 3, 2015 at 3:33 pm)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Because a lot of people wrote about him, we have dozens of his own works, and we witness philosophers writing down their ideas all the time. Is this hard?
No. I's not hard and I'm willing to accept most of that evidence. It shows that you also believe in the existence of persons based on that type of unscientific evidence. We have the same type of evidence for Jesus, except there's more and it's more recent. And in thinking scientifically, it's just as easy to distinguish between mythology in Plato or those who wrote about him as it is with Jesus.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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