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RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 26, 2015 at 8:07 pm
(February 26, 2015 at 7:42 pm)Surgenator Wrote: (February 26, 2015 at 7:24 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Okay. So since a photon never exists at any other speed than "c," it is not changing inertial reference frames, and therefore there is nothing like a Lorentz transformation to be considered. Is that what you're saying?
It refers to your response that things "I don't think relativity is about how things SEEM" and ... ahh forget it. My point is distraction from your discussion.
For the sake of the argument, lets ignore how the photon's reference frame breaks one of relativity's axioms. Where is this leading to?
Can you specifiy which axiom you are talking about?
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RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 26, 2015 at 8:28 pm
(February 26, 2015 at 8:07 pm)bennyboy Wrote: (February 26, 2015 at 7:42 pm)Surgenator Wrote: It refers to your response that things "I don't think relativity is about how things SEEM" and ... ahh forget it. My point is distraction from your discussion.
For the sake of the argument, lets ignore how the photon's reference frame breaks one of relativity's axioms. Where is this leading to?
Can you specifiy which axiom you are talking about?
I guess they're more postulates than axioms. The second one is what I'm referring to, i.e. speed of light is constant in all inertial reference frames.
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RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 26, 2015 at 9:25 pm
(February 26, 2015 at 8:28 pm)Surgenator Wrote: (February 26, 2015 at 8:07 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Can you specifiy which axiom you are talking about?
I guess they're more postulates than axioms. The second one is what I'm referring to, i.e. speed of light is constant in all inertial reference frames. What's the speed of something traveling 0 distance? Infinity? Zero? Any arbitrary value? I don't think a photon can be said to have inertia if it has zero mass, can it?
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RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 26, 2015 at 10:16 pm
(February 26, 2015 at 9:25 pm)bennyboy Wrote: (February 26, 2015 at 8:28 pm)Surgenator Wrote: I guess they're more postulates than axioms. The second one is what I'm referring to, i.e. speed of light is constant in all inertial reference frames. What's the speed of something traveling 0 distance? Infinity? Zero? Any arbitrary value? I don't think a photon can be said to have inertia if it has zero mass, can it?
Measurement aside, instantaneous speed is still something.
Also, I think your mixing the 'inertial' in inertial reference frame with actual inertia. Inertial reference frame means it is not accelerating. Plus, the photon has inertia since it has momentum.
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RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 26, 2015 at 10:50 pm
(February 26, 2015 at 10:16 pm)Surgenator Wrote: (February 26, 2015 at 9:25 pm)bennyboy Wrote: What's the speed of something traveling 0 distance? Infinity? Zero? Any arbitrary value? I don't think a photon can be said to have inertia if it has zero mass, can it?
Measurement aside, instantaneous speed is still something. Not over zero time, it's not.
Quote:Also, I think your mixing the 'inertial' in inertial reference frame with actual inertia. Inertial reference frame means it is not accelerating. Plus, the photon has inertia since it has momentum.
Okay, I retract the comments about intertia.
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RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 26, 2015 at 11:18 pm
(February 26, 2015 at 10:50 pm)bennyboy Wrote: (February 26, 2015 at 10:16 pm)Surgenator Wrote: Measurement aside, instantaneous speed is still something. Not over zero time, it's not. Instantaneous speed doesn't require any time to progress.
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RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 27, 2015 at 3:35 am
(February 26, 2015 at 11:18 pm)Surgenator Wrote: (February 26, 2015 at 10:50 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Not over zero time, it's not. Instantaneous speed doesn't require any time to progress. Not sure how relevant.
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RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 27, 2015 at 1:10 pm
(February 27, 2015 at 3:35 am)bennyboy Wrote: (February 26, 2015 at 11:18 pm)Surgenator Wrote: Instantaneous speed doesn't require any time to progress. Not sure how relevant. It is relevant because the 2nd postulate of relativity doesn't hold in the photon's reference frame. The photon's velocity is 0 in its frame when relativity requires it to always be c.
Nevertheless, lets ignore this issue for the progress of your argument. If I say the photon's reference frame is valid, and it experiences no time and no distance traveled, where does this lead?
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RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 27, 2015 at 8:11 pm
(February 27, 2015 at 1:10 pm)Surgenator Wrote: (February 27, 2015 at 3:35 am)bennyboy Wrote: Not sure how relevant. It is relevant because the 2nd postulate of relativity doesn't hold in the photon's reference frame. The photon's velocity is 0 in its frame when relativity requires it to always be c.
Nevertheless, lets ignore this issue for the progress of your argument. If I say the photon's reference frame is valid, and it experiences no time and no distance traveled, where does this lead? To the OP.
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RE: Photons and determinism, part 2
February 27, 2015 at 11:49 pm
(February 27, 2015 at 8:11 pm)bennyboy Wrote: (February 27, 2015 at 1:10 pm)Surgenator Wrote: It is relevant because the 2nd postulate of relativity doesn't hold in the photon's reference frame. The photon's velocity is 0 in its frame when relativity requires it to always be c.
Nevertheless, lets ignore this issue for the progress of your argument. If I say the photon's reference frame is valid, and it experiences no time and no distance traveled, where does this lead? To the OP.
"The answer must be no. No time has passed for that photon in its long journey, so it was always going to arrive at my eye, and no matter what happens in its journey, this is written in stone."
Something heading toward you and hitting you does not prove it was determined. You have to show that all cases with the same starting conditions will produce the same effect. We know this is not the case because some of the photons hit other stuff alone the way.
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