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Does random have rules?
March 26, 2015 at 10:13 pm
(This post was last modified: March 26, 2015 at 10:44 pm by watchamadoodle.)
(Sorry in advance if I'm getting this wrong.)
QM has a probability wave that collapses into a measurement.
If we take lots of measurements of the same type, then we begin to see the probability wave statistically.
Do you suppose there is a "law of conservation of randomness" in the universe that makes true randomness converge to the expected values?
Is it possible that future and past measurements are solutions to an equation where time isn't smooth? In classical mechanics the future and past positions of an object are all solutions to the same equation. Maybe in quantum mechanics it's the same way, except the connection is not between events in adjacent times but in more distant times? This might give the appearance of randomness?
Of course there are those arrows of time that you guys mentioned in thermodynamics and retarded potential.
Another issue is entropy. It seems to me that entropy is a measurement of randomness. Entropy seems pretty real, so that might mean randomness is pretty real too.
Probably nothing I said there makes sense. Cat's are great!!! (at least I said something sensible now  )
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RE: Does random have rules?
March 26, 2015 at 11:07 pm
(March 26, 2015 at 10:13 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: (Sorry in advance if I'm getting this wrong.) in QM there is no right, only wrong now, or will be wrong in the future.
Quote:QM has a probability wave that collapses into a measurement.
If we take lots of measurements of the same type, then we begin to see the probability wave statistically.
Do you suppose there is a "law of conservation of randomness" in the universe that makes true randomness converge to the expected values?
no, for obvious reasons.. 
Quote:Is it possible that future and past measurements are solutions to an equation where time isn't smooth? In classical mechanics the future and past positions of an object are all solutions to the same equation. Maybe in quantum mechanics it's the same way, except the connection is not between events in adjacent times but in more distant times? This might give the appearance of randomness?
or rather than time, alternate dimension.
Quote:Of course there are those arrows of time that you guys mentioned in thermodynamics and retarded potential.
In thermodynamics, 'we' no longer use that term. It is now refered to as "decelerated" potential..
Quote:Another issue is entropy. It seems to me that entropy is a measurement of randomness. Entropy seems pretty real, so that might mean randomness is pretty real too.
'entropy?  'entropy' is a cop out term that describes a given indivisuals limited understanding, of what he can not explain.
Ha! Entropy...
Quote:Probably nothing I said there makes sense. Cat's are great!!! (at least I said something sensible now )
After reading this I was going to make room for you on the pedestal I have placed Equal-lax, as being one of the smart ones.. But then You said this, and claimed it made sense... Which means you probably and pasted your questions from Somewhere.. 
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RE: Does random have rules?
March 26, 2015 at 11:16 pm
I suppose there is a slight chance that random might have rules.
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RE: Does random have rules?
March 26, 2015 at 11:25 pm
Randomness is a concept. It has whatever constraints and rules you attribute to the concept. Particular physical phenomenon may behave in a way which correspond to particular versions of randomness subject to constraints and rules associated with that version.
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RE: Does random have rules?
March 26, 2015 at 11:30 pm
(This post was last modified: March 26, 2015 at 11:33 pm by watchamadoodle.)
(March 26, 2015 at 11:07 pm)Drich Wrote: After reading this I was going to make room for you on the pedestal I have placed Equal-lax, as being one of the smart ones.. But then You said this, and claimed it made sense... Which means you probably and pasted your questions from Somewhere.. Not a cat person?  hock:
(March 26, 2015 at 11:25 pm)Chuck Wrote: Randomness is a concept. It has whatever constraints and rules you attribute to the concept. Particular physical phenomenon may behave in a way which correspond to particular versions of randomness subject to constraints and rules associated with that version. Would you say that about mass or energy and so forth?
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RE: Does random have rules?
March 26, 2015 at 11:34 pm
Probability theory comes to my mind.
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot
We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
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RE: Does random have rules?
March 26, 2015 at 11:50 pm
When a probability wave collapses into a measurement, what happens to entropy? Would entropy decrease, because the particle lost some freedom and was forced to make up it's mind for a moment? Then I suppose the particle can return to a new probability wave based on it's last measured state? Would that increase entropy again?
Obviously I am confused. 
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RE: Does random have rules?
March 26, 2015 at 11:52 pm
(This post was last modified: March 26, 2015 at 11:53 pm by Anomalocaris.)
(March 26, 2015 at 11:30 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: (March 26, 2015 at 11:25 pm)Chuck Wrote: Randomness is a concept. It has whatever constraints and rules you attribute to the concept. Particular physical phenomenon may behave in a way which correspond to particular versions of randomness subject to constraints and rules associated with that version. Would you say that about mass or energy and so forth?
About what aspects of them?
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RE: Does random have rules?
March 27, 2015 at 12:11 am
(March 26, 2015 at 11:52 pm)Chuck Wrote: (March 26, 2015 at 11:30 pm)watchamadoodle Wrote: Would you say that about mass or energy and so forth?
About what aspects of them? We must be talking about different things?
Many times we use random as a convenient abstraction to take the place of details that are too messy to include precisely. If the statistical history of those details approximates a probability density function, then we substitute a random variable for those details.
IMO the randomness that entropy quantifies is more "real". I suppose a probability wave with higher variance has higher entropy.
It seems like the probability waves are more important than the measurements, because they affect entropy? On the other hand, the measurements affect conservation of spin and all those rules.
I'm in over my head I guess. 
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RE: Does random have rules?
March 27, 2015 at 1:09 am
(This post was last modified: March 27, 2015 at 1:12 am by Anomalocaris.)
If you mean whether there is an deeper layer of determimistic mechansim beneath quantum mechanics that would allow us to specifically predict, a priori, how that behavior we generalize at a higher level as a probability function will actually collapse into in each instance, the answer is there is no hint of such an deeper deterministic mechanism. We have found nothing which suggests individual predictability is a better explanation than true individual unpredictability subject only to probabilistic distribution of outcomes.
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