Atheism Ireland denounces hateful bigot PZ Myers

[Cephus]

I do see your point, but:
- Muslims are not an entire race and you can find (1) Black Muslims from African countries in big big numbers, those are really not "brown" (2) White Muslims who converted to Islam (3) Mixed race people who you can't identify clearly (4) Brown people are a huge group - For example someone from India is different from a Saudi

The problem with this is that it allows us to hurt non Muslims - Sikhs have been hurt because they look like Muslims but aren't at all - I'm not saying you should inspect 80 year old grandmothers and so on but do you believe terrorists are dumb enough to show up wearing a silly hat and a giant beard? How do you identify a brown skin? I'm from southern Europe, I look darker than most whites, am I considered brown?

No, Islam isn't a race of any kind.  There are, as you point out, black Muslims, white Muslims, Hispanic Muslims, Asian Muslims, there are probably Muslims of every single racial group out there, pretending Islam is a race at all is absurd.  That doesn't stop a lot of liberals from running around calling any criticism of Islam racist.  I also gave a pretty decent definition of what I was talking about, specifically Muslims from the Middle East.  If we're talking about airports, which is what Harris and others have talked about, then we're going to know who is on that plane and who deserves extra scrutiny.  I'm not saying drag them out of line and waterboard them, I'm saying give them a little extra scrutiny as they are going through customs.  Sorry if that's not fair but life isn't fair.  Maybe if the more liberal, non-jihadi Muslims in the Middle East were a little more concerned about the crazy terrorists and did something on their end, they wouldn't be in this situation.  They're the ones that collectively allow this to happen.  The same is true of Americans who go to Israel.  They have a serious problem with American fundamentalist Christians trying to blow up the Dome of the Rock so that the Jews can rebuild the temple and start armageddon.  This seems to be an almost entirely American issue. Why shouldn't Americans get some extra scrutiny getting off planes in Israel?

I partially agree but let me ask this - What is mild paedophilia? Because I was thinking about legal differences between for example paedophilia using a knife and without the knife etc - His comment about rape (date rape and knife rape or something like that) was idiotic because you can't quantify how much serious rape is for someone - Marital rape for example is in theory less serious than rape at gunpoint but for the person getting raped it can be terrible to be hurt by someone you have loved your entire life

My point here is that all leaders say dumb things and for that I don't worship them - And yes that includes Dawkins and other famous atheists - For example I think his statement on the dear muslima and all that shit is stupid because it boils down to "there are larger problems elsewhere therefore we can't solve ours - So goodbye western poverty"

I have no idea, I haven't directly read Dawkins' comments. The only thing we can really gauge is how our current society views these crimes, as committed within our current society.  Our current social views really have no bearing on anything else.  The whole thing about Mohammed being a pedophile is meaningless.  At the time he lived, what he did was acceptable.  Whether we have those same views today is irrelevant.

Besides, who ever elected Richard Dawkins as a leader in the atheist movement?  I know I never voted for him, or anyone else.  He's not a leader, he's just a guy, the same as Dennett and Harris, the same was true of Hitchens.  We need to stop pretending we have leaders.  We're all individuals.  We can choose to pay attention to something someone else says or we can choose to ignore it.  He's no more important than you or I, he's just written more books.

As for Dear Muslima, I do agree with what Dawkins says.  He was criticizing western feminists who really only pay attention to problems in their own back yard, they only worry about first world problems, not major issues that they don't have to stare at every day.  What he said is absolutely and unquestionably true, you've got a lot of western feminists who are much more concerned that someone might look at them funny at an atheist conference than the fact that women are being murdered and raped for religious reasons overseas.  No matter what they claim, these feminists don't  care about the rights and treatment of women, they only care about themselves.

[Alex K]

Most criticism I see of anyone is ripped out of context. I've seen many accusations against PZM or Rebecca Watson (I don't want to lump them together) that did not match with what I had read. Just the other day saw an interview with Alain de Botton where he says things about Dawkins that I, having read and seen almost everything RD has produced, perceive as bald faced lies. Then again, RD had said things about others that are crass mischaracterizations. The upshot can only be, trust no one in such kerfuffles.

PZM is on record for spewing hate. As I linked in the OP. 

The OP is more or less Nugent presenting a sorry bunch of snippets completely out of context. Why should I trust him to fairly represent how these things were meant and sounded in context, and follow his judgment based on this? I don't...

[Dystopia]

No, Islam isn't a race of any kind.  There are, as you point out, black Muslims, white Muslims, Hispanic Muslims, Asian Muslims, there are probably Muslims of every single racial group out there, pretending Islam is a race at all is absurd.  That doesn't stop a lot of liberals from running around calling any criticism of Islam racist.  I also gave a pretty decent definition of what I was talking about, specifically Muslims from the Middle East.  If we're talking about airports, which is what Harris and others have talked about, then we're going to know who is on that plane and who deserves extra scrutiny.  I'm not saying drag them out of line and waterboard them, I'm saying give them a little extra scrutiny as they are going through customs.  Sorry if that's not fair but life isn't fair.  Maybe if the more liberal, non-jihadi Muslims in the Middle East were a little more concerned about the crazy terrorists and did something on their end, they wouldn't be in this situation.  They're the ones that collectively allow this to happen.  The same is true of Americans who go to Israel.  They have a serious problem with American fundamentalist Christians trying to blow up the Dome of the Rock so that the Jews can rebuild the temple and start armageddon.  This seems to be an almost entirely American issue. Why shouldn't Americans get some extra scrutiny getting off planes in Israel?

I don't disagree entirely but can you explain at least a plausible picture of what a terrorist looks like? Do you think they are easily identifiable? 

I have no idea, I haven't directly read Dawkins' comments. The only thing we can really gauge is how our current society views these crimes, as committed within our current society.  Our current social views really have no bearing on anything else.  The whole thing about Mohammed being a pedophile is meaningless.  At the time he lived, what he did was acceptable.  Whether we have those same views today is irrelevant.

On this I can agree but I was interpreting "mild" as something different so sorry for that (law student stuff) - I'm always amused when people hate me for telling them that imperialism at the time was pretty much justified and normal

Besides, who ever elected Richard Dawkins as a leader in the atheist movement?  I know I never voted for him, or anyone else.  He's not a leader, he's just a guy, the same as Dennett and Harris, the same was true of Hitchens.  We need to stop pretending we have leaders.  We're all individuals.  We can choose to pay attention to something someone else says or we can choose to ignore it.  He's no more important than you or I, he's just written more books.

My point, he's a cool person in some stuff, but not a leader for atheism because it's not a religion

As for Dear Muslima, I do agree with what Dawkins says.  He was criticizing western feminists who really only pay attention to problems in their own back yard, they only worry about first world problems, not major issues that they don't have to stare at every day.  What he said is absolutely and unquestionably true, you've got a lot of western feminists who are much more concerned that someone might look at them funny at an atheist conference than the fact that women are being murdered and raped for religious reasons overseas.  No matter what they claim, these feminists don't  care about the rights and treatment of women, they only care about themselves.

I don't see your point, are you saying we should ignore our problems? Your example is overly satirical to be taken seriously, the greatest concerns in this case wouldn't be something looking at you funny but perhaps being harassed, blamed for rape, suffering domestic violence or suffering stupid stereotypes. I have a question - For those who think women (and other people in those countries) Suffer so much - Why don't you donate money? Have you wondered that maybe those crazy feminists are not rich and perhaps because of that they focus on their local countries/cities? Not to mention that as I have said the perspective is anglo-saxon feminist based and very narrow minded - It's no surprise some members here have never heard of feminazis - America is a bad representation of the entire west, my girlfriend is a feminist and she is anti-Islam, but I believe the pro-Islam thing is more liberal left oriented than feminism - Would you be surprised if I told you there are right-wing feminists out there?

On the problematic of suffering - There's people in North Korea worse than most places in the world but I don't give a fuck, literally - I care about my country and half of the world can die for all as I care - Solving first world problems actually improves the second and third world because we have influence over them - The whole point was to say that it's ironic to use the "they have it worse somewhere" because for ANY problem you can find ANY worse problem, for pretty much anything there is a worse something - Being stoned to death is worse than being whipped for adultery for example, but both are horrible.

[TheMessiah]

PZM is on record for spewing hate. As I linked in the OP. 

The OP is more or less Nugent presenting a sorry bunch of snippets completely out of context. Why should I trust him to fairly represent how these things were meant and sounded in context, and follow his judgment based on this? I don't...

Can you explain to me how those quotes are out of context? If they were out of context, as you claim (all of them), then Atheism Ireland, a highly respected and established organisation would not publicly denounce PZ Myers.

And no, it wasn't Nugent representing them. The original source was directly from Atheism Ireland, they cited those remarks in a detailed post of why they're denouncing him.

http://atheist.ie/2015/04/atheist-irelan...-pz-myers/

---

Actually white men have

More specifically, white Jews. 

My point is that in western countries there is no persecution against Christians and Christians are not the most discriminated minority like some like to claim - It's a lot harder to be Muslim because everyone thinks you're a terrorist or even Jewish because many people think you're greedy and rule the world

There is discrimination towards Christians largely built on stereotypes. My point of contention was that being privileged does not excuse discrimination. Discrimination is wrong either way and it should be condemned whether you're a rich Jew or poor Muslim. Many people associate Christians with gay-hating Creationist idiots, while those people exist, it should not be a scapegoat.

What's the criteria for Jewish? Religion is useless because those are people who happen to have the same religion - I guess we can then say that Christians have a lot of influence over the media, far more than Jews - And yes Jews are successful and do make money (and have high IQ's) because ashkenazi Jews (ethnic group) practised eugenics among other things and have a culture that values knowledge hardwork etc 

The link said religious group, so while ethnic Jews exist, I presume it meant religious followers. Christians do have a lot of influence over the media, but self-identifying Christians make up 77% of the US population, in comparison to a mere 2% of the Jewish population in the US. Of that 2% Jewish population, they make up 25% of the 400 wealthiest Americans.

Of the 1,426 billionaires around the globe, 165 of them are Jews, and their joint wealth reaches the incredible amount of $812 billion.

For Jews to be privileged there would not be conspiracy theories about them ruling the world or people thinking that Israel shouldn't exist - For Jews to be privileged you would have to forget the dark side of the internet where you can find over 10000 sites promoting Jew hatred.

There are Islamic hate groups which openly call for the murder of both Jews and Christian ''infidels'' --- with contempt for Christians. Along with that, is the general mockery of Christians. My point is that it's irrelevant whether they're ''privileged''; it's not an excuse for discrimination/hatred.

In fact, that is the exact line of thinking which festered antisemitism. For many years, leading up to the holocaust, Jews were hated for their wealth. Despised with utter contempt and that antisemitism was built on the notion that Jews were unfairly privileged. This type of thinking was very common in Eastern Europe. It's only now, that we consider Jews not to be 'privileged' in the sense that Christians are.

I never understood this - if your only goal is to get laid why not pay a hooker? You can find really cheap ones and they cost less than buying one or two drinks

Could pay a hooker, I believe he was just making a general point in regards to the dating scene.

[Cephus]

I don't disagree entirely but can you explain at least a plausible picture of what a terrorist looks like? Do you think they are easily identifiable? 

If it was easy, there would be no terrorists  because we'd catch them all.  But there's no way to check everyone, we have limited resources and we need to find the most rational way of applying them.  I don't really care how it makes people feel, I care how effective it is.  There are lots of people out there who couldn't care less what's effective, they just want to feel good.

My point, he's a cool person in some stuff, but not a leader for atheism because it's not a religion

I've met him a couple of times, he's a decent person but he's not a hero or a leader.  I get really tired of people who have absurd levels of hero worship.  PZ is one of those people who has a cult of personality around him.  Dawkins has his own views, he writes books and gives talks and people can choose to listen to him or not.  They can agree or disagree with him all they want.  He shouldn't be a target because he's got some imaginary status within the atheist community, but because people can demonstrate that he's right or wrong.  Most people can't do either.

I don't see your point, are you saying we should ignore our problems? Your example is overly satirical to be taken seriously, the greatest concerns in this case wouldn't be something looking at you funny but perhaps being harassed, blamed for rape, suffering domestic violence or suffering stupid stereotypes. I have a question - For those who think women (and other people in those countries) Suffer so much - Why don't you donate money? Have you wondered that maybe those crazy feminists are not rich and perhaps because of that they focus on their local countries/cities? Not to mention that as I have said the perspective is anglo-saxon feminist based and very narrow minded - It's no surprise some members here have never heard of feminazis - America is a bad representation of the entire west, my girlfriend is a feminist and she is anti-Islam, but I believe the pro-Islam thing is more liberal left oriented than feminism - Would you be surprised if I told you there are right-wing feminists out there?

Nope, but so many radical feminists give absolutely zero fucks about anyone but themselves, they act like the world is falling down around their ears and Dawkins, rightfully, pointed out that they've got very little, compared to others, to complain about.  That was the point that I took from Dear Muslima, although if you want to know how Dawkins meant it, you'd have to talk to him.  There are a lot of people who do give money and call attention to things outside of the first world.  Those people are not the feminists you see ranting on YouTube and Tumblr, or getting pissy on Twitter.  Yes, there are plenty of feminists of virtually every political stripe, but the ones that are out there yelling and screaming, especially the radical feminists whining about the patriarchy and all that, the people who are pretty solidly on PZ's side, to bring this back to the subject at hand, those are absurdly far left.  There probably isn't a right wing feminist among them.

[Pizza]

"Those people are not the feminists you see ranting on YouTube and Tumblr, or getting pissy on Twitter."
Most people on the Internet are whining bitches.....wait...

[Alex K]

https://freethoughtblogs.com/godlessness...-pz-myers/

[TheMessiah]

https://freethoughtblogs.com/godlessness...-pz-myers/

This blog has essentially confirmed what Atheist Ireland has said by actually linking to his statements. None of these statements are out of context. Reading them makes me sick...what happened to this guy? When did he become a nutter?

For instance, his Irish Wanker comment, which was cited as one of the reasons of Atheist Ireland denouncing him, was literally said. Imagine if he had said Indian wanker or Pakistani wanker?

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2...ent-928941

[Alex K]

I just dumped Alex Gabriels blog entry for reference, I haven't gone through them, shall do later.

I'm not saying it is a good idea to use such slurs, but Irish wanker is less racist than pakistani wanker coming from a PZ Myers as they more or less are from the same ethnic group.

Well more or less, considering the persecution the irish suffered in the US and from England...

[TheMessiah]

I just dumped Alex Gabriels blog entry for reference, I haven't gone through them, shall do later.

I'm not saying it is a good idea to use such slurs, but Irish wanker is less racist than pakistani wanker coming from a PZ Myers as they more or less are from the same ethnic group.

Well more or less, considering the persecution the irish suffered in the US and from England...

You could argue that it's less racist, but historically, the Irish have been treated just as bad as brown people, at some points in time. The English treated them as sub-human; viciously oppressed Irish Catholics and subjected them to decades upon decades of discrimination.