Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 29, 2024, 10:25 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Your favorite surahs
#11
RE: Your favorite surahs
(April 20, 2015 at 1:39 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The next part about "beat them", that's one way of translating, another is to separate/go away from them

Yawn...apologetics at its finest. Come on, I would have more respect for followers of a myth if they at least held their hands up sometimes and agreed with what it obviously fucking means instead of squirming.

Let's try another for a laugh MK.

(9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."

Of course this doesn't in any way mean that infidels are worthless pieces of shit does it.
Reply
#12
RE: Your favorite surahs
(April 20, 2015 at 1:50 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote:
(April 20, 2015 at 1:39 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The next part about "beat them", that's one way of translating, another is to separate/go away from them

Yawn...apologetics at its finest. Come on, I would have more respect for followers of a myth if they at least held their hands up sometimes and agreed with what it obviously fucking means instead of squirming.

The Quran came with appointed interpreters, the Prophet and the 12 Imams. If the nation united on following them, then we would know all the meanings to the verses of Quran. But as they were prosecuted, and a lot of lies were attributed to them, we don't know what is the true interpretation regarding all the verses in Quran. However as far as this verse goes, we have an authentic hadith that supports it being to separate from/distance yourself from them.
Reply
#13
Your favorite surahs
Or perhaps we're reading the wrong message with this one.

Bukhari (11:626) - [Muhammad said:] "I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those, who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes."

It's actually a really nice piece of scripture, we're just taking it out of context. My arse.
Reply
#14
RE: Your favorite surahs
(April 20, 2015 at 1:50 pm)TubbyTubby Wrote:
Let's try another for a laugh MK.

(9:73) - "O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination."

Of course this doesn't in any way mean that infidels are worthless pieces of shit does it.
Do you know who disbelievers refers to in Quran? There is a specific meaning, and it refers to those who disbelieve in clear proofs after the truth has come to them. The truth coming to them or proofs, as shown by other verses, is not simply when they hear the message and deny. For example, the Pharaoh and his chiefs, it was said the truth came to them when the miracle of the staff turning into a snake and back to a stick happened. They were very much aware that he was a Messenger but still denied. Likewise other verses show their is a degree of stubbornness towards his signs/proofs, that they quite know it to be true but oppose it.  However, as for others who didn't believe in the message but were not aware of it being true, and had no way towards disbelief or belief, it termed them "Musta'afeen" (weak/without power to accept the truth or deny it). It specifically said they can be forgiven. The hadiths apply that to all sorts of people, and with shias, including people who have no hate towards the Imams, because, hate usually comes when people are very much aware of their station but deny it. People not aware of them don't usually hate them.

Those who didn't fight the believers over all weren't termed disbelievers, and believers were to love them as well, showing God didn't take them as enemies nor his wrath was upon them.

This shows those who fought the Nabi only did so due to knowing the proofs, opposing it, hating it, and wanting to put out God's light.

In verse 1:7, we see there is a distinction between those who God's wrath is upon and those astray. Of course those astray in a way are guided by God, just not upon the straight path, but upon goodness, while those who God's wrath is upon are really those who are astray from the path of humanity.
Reply
#15
Your favorite surahs
Ok, let's try one that's a little more specific just for giggles.

Tabari 7:97  The morning after the murder of Ashraf, the Prophet declared, "Kill any Jew who falls under your power."

Of course, he doesn't actually mean Jews does he. FFS.

Tabari 9:69  "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"

Just admit to yourself, 'yeh actually this shit is wrong' instead of denying it. ISIS are more honest with the Quran than you are.
Reply
#16
RE: Your favorite surahs
You aren't quoting Quran, you are quoting hadiths. And if you want to quote hadiths that are proof against me, quote Shia authentic hadiths as I am not Sunni. Thanks.
Reply
#17
RE: Your favorite surahs
After being more in touch with believers I can honestly say I'm not concerned with what holy books say but practical attitudes in real life.

I haven't read the Quran except for a few verses once in a while and my memory recalls lots of violence, but since almost no believers follow their book entirely I'm not concerned about what's written there. I don't know how many people really realize this but you can be a Muslim (or a Christian etc) and not cherry pick but instead theologically reject some verses for being violent. My Christians friends reject violent old testament verses because it contradicts the "Love They Neighbour" thing and since Jesus was the son of god he knows better than people before. This seems reasonable to me. As long as people support secularism, I will not care about any particular religion.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

Reply
#18
Your favorite surahs
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Oh sorry, these 'disbelievers' aren't the common and garden sort of atheist are they. These disbelievers have actually seen proof of Allah and then not accepted so they really deserve decapitating. Atheists don't have the spiritual werewithall to have proof of Allah so our necks are spared - we're so fucking lucky. Thanks Allah. Allah can go fuck himself.

Tell me, how does your typical soldier of Allah tell the difference between one of these...

(April 20, 2015 at 2:05 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Do you know who disbelievers refers to in Quran? There is a specific meaning, and it refers to those who disbelieve in clear proofs after the truth has come to them. The truth coming to them or proofs, as shown by other verses, is not simply when they hear the message and deny.

And one of these...

(April 20, 2015 at 2:05 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: However, as for others who didn't believe in the message but were not aware of it being true, and had no way towards disbelief or belief, it termed them "Musta'afeen" (weak/without power to accept the truth or deny it).

Just so I can save my head getting removed when I'm asked the question if I was on my knees blindfolded in front of the sympathetic jihadist with the 10 inch serrated blade. I'm sure he'd listen to reason if I told him "actually, you know I've never really seen proof of Allah so would you mind letting me go. There's a good chap"
Reply
#19
RE: Your favorite surahs
The context of the verses were over all those fighting the Prophet and the believers were disbelievers.  Another verse shows they didn't prosecute believers except that believed in their Lord. 


However that is not to say everyone who is going to fight Muslims after the Prophet as disbelievers or that we are to fight a disbeliever who doesn't fight us.


Even regarding the disbelievers, it stated if they incline to peace, you incline to it. 




So let's put everything in perspective and not take verses out of context.
Reply
#20
RE: Your favorite surahs
(April 20, 2015 at 1:39 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The verse doesn't state by what he made one excel the other, it rather states by what he made some excel others, and that could be that men excel each other in certain attributes, and that that it's due to these attributes, he made men protectors of women. The next part about "beat them", that's one way of translating, another is to separate/go away from them, and as far as Shia hadiths go, this is what has support by an authentic hadith while beating is all weak hadiths.
Quote:Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.
- Sahih International translation. Maybe the English-speaking Muslims didn't receive the memo? Your Allah is omniscient, right? Maybe he just wanted to confuse his future followers by using a word that could be interpreted as "beat" OR "separate"? Now that's what I call supreme wisdom.
Quote:Some Muslims, such as Islamic feminist groups, argue that Muslim men use the text as an excuse for domestic violence... Ibn Abbas, a companion of Muhammad, wrote the earliest commentary on the Quran, and to this part he himself said this is only a light tap.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/An-Nisa,_34
Well, that's nice. Allah left it up to subsequent readers to determine exactly what constituents a striking or a "chastisement" of a "disobedient" woman. Not like there's anything inherently sexist and misogynistic in that debate.

And the suggestion that the Qur'an defines "unbelievers" as those who reject the "proofs of Allah" is hilarious. What is a "proof" that outweighs the fact that "Allah's" shitty book is obviously a product of 7th-century Arabs beginning to get a taste Western civilization?

(April 20, 2015 at 2:20 pm)Dystopia Wrote: After being more in touch with believers I can honestly say I'm not concerned with what holy books say but practical attitudes in real life.
"The cure" is, as Sam Harris said, to "stop overestimating the power of bad people, and stop underestimating the power of bad ideas." Also, here's an enlightening article written by a former Muslim apologist explaining the differences between Islam and Christianity and why the former trumps it in insidious violence in almost every way: http://m.christianpost.com/news/the-crit...s--137416/
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
Reply





Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)