(January 22, 2016 at 2:51 pm)Jenny A Wrote: I've never really understood what it means to be a slave to sin.
We all have sin we tend to violate more than others. try to stop sinning. The reason you can't is because you are a slave to it. you must yield to your desire to sin.
No one is without sin. if they believe themselves to be without sin they have deluded themselves. We ALL Sin all the time.
Biblically, sin is transgression against god's laws. [/quote] more or less
Quote: So other than following them, how could anyone be a slave to god's laws.
The law is not the goal. In the Roman's study I did a while back we learn that the Law only has one purpose, and that is to show everyone Is a Sinner. To be a 'slave to God' means is to allow Jesus to 'buy' your sin debt with his spilt blood.
This is the only real 'choice' we are given. to chose to be remain a slave to sin or to be bought by Christ. To remain a slave to sin means we all owe a death. a Spiritual death and a Physical death. Christ paid both and offers us eternal life in exchange for our debt.
Quote:But of course as defined by Jesus, the abscence of sin is impossible as it would involve not only giving away everything you have, but not ever having any bad thoughts either, including harmless natural ones like lust.
That's the point of Jesus expanding the law to include even sinful thoughts. So that all would understand they were without sin.
Quote: Frankly, given his failure to honor his mother and father,
How did Jesus' teaching the teachers of the temple for 3 days bring shame on his father and mother?
Quote: questioning god at Gesthsemone,
Where in the law says we are not allowed to ask God questions?
1Thess 5:21 says question ALL Things and hold on to what is Good. This means not only question the questionable but we are also to question the foundational.
Quote: and authorizing the theft of both a donkey and an ass(or was it a colt?),
I must have missed that one. If your talking about the donkey he rode into Jersulem on, how was that stealing? was it stealing when Jesus told one of his disciples to pay the temple tax with a gold coin they found in the mouth of a fish?
Is it not possible for you to conceive that the God who call creation into existence could not have put the tax money needed in the mouth of a fish or leave a donkey tied up??? I could do both of these things and I'm not God. What makes these things Jesus', is the fact he knew where and when these things would be left for Him.
The donkey like the tax money was prepared for him/his use.
Quote: So by a slave to sin, I take you to mean that you can't stop sinning. No kidding. No one can.
Which is the reason Christ died, and offers you atonement. So that you can still be found righteous before God.
Quote:Though it is quite possible to be a moral upright person, and most people manage that just fine.
that is because 'morality' is man's version of God's perfect righteousness, with one small difference. Man's morality allows for the sins he is willing to accept in current society. which means as time goes on, the bar of morality gets lowered. so to live a 'moral life' means nothing except to those who live in the society you do, and live in the time you live in. move back or forward one or two generations, or to a different continent and your 'morality' goes out the window.
So then how could 'morality' be a true measure of anything if it is ever changing?
Quote: So abscent god's law, it appears perfectly possible to be a good person.
"good" being defined by popular morality is meaningless. for example Oscar Shiendler was a "Good Nazi" Now if you judge the man in light of his peers and fellow war propheteers he was a hero, but if you were to judge his life against even the morality of today he was a monster.
He worked train loads of slaves to Death.
This includes women and children.
The people in his care lived in death camp environments, they starved, their medical needs were not met, yet he profited/millions from this work.
Not to mention he 'skimmed young ladies off the top.'
Take away his name and what he did in the end to 'redeem himself' and apply these deeds to a single person, and use your best 'moral judgment' and evaluate these deeds as they stand on their own. Now ask yourself is a man who were to do these things hero by your understanding of what is 'moral?'
No of course not. It is not until you put these deeds in context of his specific story does he become a hero. Why does that make a difference? Because 'we' put a false grade on sin. we believe some sins are worse than others. and if we stay on the lighter end of the spectrum we are 'good people.'
but again look at Oscar's list of 'immorality.' The fact that we can label him a hero in light of all of his misdeeds points to how perverse his society's time and morals of that people were, because his list was on the light side of what his peers were doing, was capped by a simple gesture of humanity made him a hero. It is only from a third person perspective can we truly see how far our 'morality' has shifted from any standard of good.
Or did you think in that time the Nazis saw themselves and what they were doing as immoral? Do you think members of ISIS see themselves as 'Immoral"? what about the guys who flew into the world trade center did they see themselves as 'immoral?'
Without God's law how is it you are any different? How would you see yourself as 'immoral' if like the people of ISIS, the Nazis, and the Taliban you grew up in a society where everything they do is moral (no matter how crazy it would seem to other societies?) You only see yourself as 'moral' because your society dictates morality for you, and you stay with in those bounds.
I'm asking you and people like you what if you grew up in one of the soceities this society defines as 'evil/immoral'? With Your pattern (without God/Without the bible) is to simply follow what society sets fourth as 'morality.' So how could you be 'moral' as this society defines it IF you did not grow up here in this society? Or would you be blowing yourself up at the first sign of westerns? Marching Jews into death camps? Cutting off heads of 'immoral people' if the pop morality you grew up with said that was ok?
Quote: So, if god's laws are rigged, why worry about violating them. Just work on being a moral person and let it go.
Because again, God's law is and always has been a constant, in the face of ever changing morality.
Just so we are clear God's law only serves one purpose and that to identify sin even in the life of the 'super moral' which for a humble and honest person has them in a position of needing atonement. With atonement one no longer under the law/needs the law to be found righteous.
Quote:That brings me to the second problem: how does being a slave to god save you from being a slave to god's law.
Being a slave to God means you belong to Him. He has declared to destroy all who do not.
Quote: You may think that it saves you from the consequences of violating god's laws, but it won't keep you from violating them.
That's the whole point of salvation! and Romans 7 we do not have to abide by the law to be found righteous. We are found righteous because Jesus is righteous, and we have traded our unrighteousness for his righteousness. In essence we were purchased by the blood of Christ, and we wear his righteousness rather than our own.
Quote: You remain sinful by any biblical definition.
YES!
Amen! We are and always will be sinful. That why the bible tells us it is not about earning or deserving to goto Heaven. Because nothing we can say or do as sinners can ever earn this for ourselves so that no one can boast about what he has done to get there. eternal life is a gift that we simply accept.
Heaven was never about being 'good.' it was about being righteous before God. one can only do this if he puts on the atonement Christ offers.. Heaven is about humility and obedience not who is 'moral.' "morality" is meaningless.
I think the devil's greatest victory was to sell you guys on 'morality' and the distain you have for all slavery.
When in reality not all slavery is evil. what makes slavery evil is the absolute power unchecked/unregulated slavery gives to evil men. with such power comes complete corruption, once such complete corruption is overcome any aspect of slavery without thought or regard is automatically given over to the stereotype of pure evil without forethought.
In the bible Slavery trades work for honor, lands, commodities, the right to marry into a great or strong family.. On some level this is what God is asking us for. the humility, the honesty to look at ourselves critically, and a heart contrite enough to follow through a superficial process of redemption.. After all, if we are not commanded to repent and live a sin free life, what is the actual cost to us? aside from humility and a little honesty when looking at ourselves... Nothing! and that all goes back to "Salvation is a gift from God so that no man can boast!"
What would one boast about?? His 'morality' of course!
Quote:God just happens to forgive you.
Look at sin and righteousness as a coat you wear.
Let's say sin is a black coat and righteousness is a white coat.
Now. from birth you only have the tools to build a black coat. no matter how nice (moral) or well tailored, or even tattered (immorality) the coat is the rule to enter heaven is one must be wearing a white coat.
Problem is we can not make white coats. So God provides the solution. He (through Jesus) will give away the white coats needed. All anyone must do is exchange their black coat for a white one, but they must have THE coat Christ offers them.
the problem? 'we' in society sometimes feel our super well tailored blinged out black coat should far exceed the 'quality' off the rack white coat offered by Christ. the problem is how well the coat is made is not what is being looked at. it is the color/where you got the coat/can you follow directions and give up on your own abilities and trust/do as you are told.
Quote:And what do you get for forgiveness? Eternal life with worshiping the admittedly manevolent god.
God is with out shame or doubt completely Malevolent to those wearing the black coats no matter how proud they are of them or how well they made them. But so what? If a black coat wearer can not follow simple no cost instructions then what/why do they deserve God's benevolence?
as far as what we get? We will be given jobs/honors in heaven for simply putting on a white coat.. (The universe is a big big place, God did not waist his time putting all of that and the endless galaxies together I'm personally thinking exploration being set incharge of something/maybe some planetary system or something along those lines.)
Quote:The cure sounds worse than the disease. OH YEAH, hell. It's really a choice of death(or worse yet eternal torment) or worshiping a menevolent being. Such fun. Possitively Lovecraftian.
if you are so wrong about what gets you into heaven couldn't it also be possible that your also wrong about what we are slated to do for eternity?
Quote:I can see why you make the choice you do if you really beleive in the existence of the menevolant old bastard.
Are you benevolent to everyone? would you offer a ISIS fighter a bed to sleep in your house with you family/kids? Or would you see him dead before allowing him in?
What if he thought you malevolent before you killed him, would that bother you or your kids you are protecting?
So what would be any different if when we die our eyes and hearts were open to this truth about those who would not trade their coats for the one Christ offers?
Quote:Of course there are other ways of interpreting slave to sin. Does god perhaps keep you from committing moral crimes? That would be a force worth having. But judging from the actions of Christians, it appears not.
Again, your comparing the wrong set of values.
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