Answering Atheism I

[Loki_999]

@Darwinian - one of the problems i find is one of the same problems Dawkins pointed out with God. If there is a God, what was before God, or who created God.... if God existed forever (as the theists believe) then what was he doing for all those eternities before creating the universe?

And why would this be considered differently than the Big Bang?

Same goes for the history of the universe (regardless of what caused it - eg: string theory). Its either a case of it has always existed (the expansion/contraction model) or the big bang, in which case, what caused the big bang... which really has to be something outside/beyond/parallel to the universe which then brings us to the regression problem. What exists beyond our universe (if anything) is going to be a real headache for us to figure out beyond the theorizing stage.

And why could God not always have existed?

Same with going downscale. We think maybe we have the smallest particles figured out with quarks etc, but there is always the potential for there to be something smaller that we can't detect.

Sure... but we have nothing to say about it... because we can't detect it anyhow.

Your comments i think are more or less in line with my posts (unless I misunderstand). My point was that science doesn't yet have all the answers but it doesn't claim to (yet). Religion on the other hand just fills all unknowns with "God", and this is commonly referred to as the god of the gaps. As science explains things that were previously the province of "God" then the theists either have to dismiss the scientific evidence or allow their god to become a little bit smaller with each gap that is filled in.

In answer to your questions...

1) Its no different to the big bang. Basically the same point can be applied. Its an interesting question. Maybe one day we will have an answer. In the meantime i'll patiently accept scientific ignorance until we have some evidence. Better than adopting religious ignorance.

2) God could have always existed (and for the moment presuming it exists). Just interesting what it was doing for the eternities before he ran up our universe? Did it have previous universes? Are we universe number 1000? Maybe it is two timing us and has several universes on the go at once.... I know for you it probably doesn't matter what it was doing for the eternities before he created this universe, but that's part of the scientific mind, not the religious.

3) Again, the religious mind shows itself. We can't detect it therefore its not relevant. Of course its bloody relevant! The more we find out about the universe and how it works the more chance we have of surviving as a species. One day in a few million years our sun will go kaboom! If we don't figure out a way off this rock before then (assuming some other natural disaster doesn't wipe us out) then that's the end of our species. I don't know about you, but I would like humanity to spread our among the stars. Possibly to meet and interact with other lifeforms. Who knows, maybe one day we will crack enough mysteries of the universe to even find a way of humanity surviving the end of the universe.

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Damn, i really should read all the posts.... ok, got it, the OP is a troll who seems to have some interesting myspace friends. Looking at some of those names, maybe i'll make contact with a few myself!

[Violet]

1) Its no different to the big bang. Basically the same point can be applied. Its an interesting question. Maybe one day we will have an answer. In the meantime i'll patiently accept scientific ignorance until we have some evidence. Better than adopting religious ignorance.

Good good Just so long as one recognizes that it isn't any different

2) God could have always existed (and for the moment presuming it exists). Just interesting what it was doing for the eternities before he ran up our universe? Did it have previous universes? Are we universe number 1000? Maybe it is two timing us and has several universes on the go at once.... I know for you it probably doesn't matter what it was doing for the eternities before he created this universe, but that's part of the scientific mind, not the religious.

Disclaimer: I'm an atheist, and am just playing the devils advocate here...

Why would it have been eternities? Wouldn't "He" have to be outside of time as well if indeed he created everything? I don't see how "Him" creating more than one universe changes in any way the 'fact?' that "He" created this one. It really doesn't matter to me what "He" was doing... but it's so terribly boring to be "perfect"... he'd likely want the company of imperfect beings (to interest Him)... so why not create imperfect beings? This is the alternative, after all: http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/J.S._Steinman

3) Again, the religious mind shows itself. We can't detect it therefore its not relevant. Of course its bloody relevant! The more we find out about the universe and how it works the more chance we have of surviving as a species. One day in a few million years our sun will go kaboom! If we don't figure out a way off this rock before then (assuming some other natural disaster doesn't wipe us out) then that's the end of our species. I don't know about you, but I would like humanity to spread our among the stars. Possibly to meet and interact with other lifeforms. Who knows, maybe one day we will crack enough mysteries of the universe to even find a way of humanity surviving the end of the universe.

You said:

Same with going downscale. We think maybe we have the smallest particles figured out with quarks etc, but there is always the potential for there to be something smaller that we can't detect.

If we cannot detect it (or its effects, or some reason it might exist), then there is no reason to suppose it exists at all. I should have thought that quite scientific (not to assume that there are smaller things than the smallest we can detect (without reason))... is it not religious in nature to assume that such things exist without any evidence? Moving on...

The more we find out about the universe and how it works the more chance we have of surviving as a species. One day in a few million years our sun will go kaboom! If we don't figure out a way off this rock before then (assuming some other natural disaster doesn't wipe us out) then that's the end of our species.

And that works in the other way too... the bomb dropped on hiroshima may as well have been a potato in respect to the destructive power our technology makes us capable of. As for our sun going "boom"... it simply will not happen. And it won't be millions of years either... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#Life_cycle how does "The increase in solar temperatures is such that already in about a billion years, the surface of the Earth will become too hot for liquid water to exist, ending all terrestrial life." sound to you? If I was you, i'd be more concerned about our capacity to kill ourselves than nature's capacity to kill a few of us (exclusion would be one of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_even...vilization , though imo much more unlikely than us killing ourselves off).

I don't know about you, but I would like humanity to spread our among the stars. Possibly to meet and interact with other lifeforms. Who knows, maybe one day we will crack enough mysteries of the universe to even find a way of humanity surviving the end of the universe.

This matters how?

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Been and gone before I noticed it was here.

Yo Adrian! Jolly good show! Have a biscuit.

[Loki_999]

@Saerules - fair points all. Just to comment on the undetectable small stuff, i should of course had qualified that with a "now" statement, in that we can't detect now.

Also, yup, i know about the life cycle of suns and our sun. I just used kaboom for the hell of it. I do worry about us killing ourselves off as well as nature taking care of us. Still doesn't change the objective that we need to find a way off this ball of rock and the sooner the better.

Congrats on playing the devil's advocate very well. You fooled me into thinking you were a theist. Your profile doesn't actually answer the question about religious views... although the comments about bananas and alaska made a funny read.