Miracle

[paulpablo]

You have started this discussion from the topic of skin but soon after that, you have diverted it to the topic of internal organs. As there are certain internal organs, which indeed sense the heat, therefore I did not mind to go with you in that direction.

I had given you a precise understanding that if skin would not let fire to pass through then that fire would not affect the internal organs. The only way to affect the internal organs (in case if the skin downright barricade fire from penetrating) is the oral intake of hot stuff and correspondingly I had given the relevant verses that confirmed this fact.

Well can you explain what the miracle of the verse is again? The only thing I can see the quran saying right now is that it hurts if you have magic skin and it's continually burned.

[paulpablo]

I am saying “NO ONE in ancient times knew of numbness caused by burns” and for evidence I had given example of few ancient philosophers because there is no need of a huge list of references to convey a simple idea.

You do need a huge list of references if you're trying to prove that the entire population of the world knew nothing of something that would have been easily discovered in ancient times.
All it would have taken for someone to discover that fire can cause numbness is for a burns victim to say to someone "I feel nothing here" Or words to that effect.
I don't know how much medical experience the philosophers you mentioned have, I doubt if you have even studied everything that they knew about pain and numbness I have a feeling you're just using Wikipedia quotes and you know just about as much as I do about plato.
Additionally there could have been alternative theories around the time of these philosophers about pain, numbness and so on.
If several historians came to me and said no one in ancient times knew anything about burns or numbness I'd look into the claim of a miracle further, but I'm not just going to take your word for it after seeing a few Wikipedia quotes, and I don't have time to research into every different ancient philosopher and medical person on their knowledge of burns victims, skin, pain or numbness.

[Longhorn]

REPEATING AGAIN!

The purpose of Quran is to give warnings to unbelievers who transgress the natural limits by intention and encourage the believers who live unpretentious life for the pleasure of God.

Quran is not a book of Science. By giving scientific facts, Quran manifest that it is not a work of human. Quran is not determine to give education of science, history, philosophy, literature, etc. It shows ways how to live a moral life.

bold mine

But the facts it gives are debatable and only appear to refer to natural phenomena if you interpret them correctly, whereas the germ theory would have been a much stronger evidence for the quran's divinity. And something 7th century Arabs could've used.

[bennyboy]

But the facts it gives are debatable and only appear to refer to natural phenomena if you interpret them correctly, whereas the germ theory would have been a much stronger evidence for the quran's divinity. And something 7th century Arabs could've used.

Yeah, what kind of a dick God would prove the Quran is a miracle by talking about a nifty-looking light/dark-blue division in the oceans around rivers (the halocline), but wouldn't bother to teach his people how to keep newborn babies from dying of disease.

[Harris]

Harris, you mother fucking dumbass, what is known as the natural world is completely different than comprehending what is the natural world.

Your fiction may dictate that the answer should be known automatically, but reality shows that finding the answer is the most rewarding experience of all.

Your understanding develops by observations and learnings therefore, your comprehension is contingent upon the orderly structure and on how nature functions. In fact, nature influences and fashions your comprehension. This comprehension then you apply to get even better understanding of nature and by that, you enhance your lifestyle.

“It is Allah Who hath created the heavens and the earth and sendeth down rain from the skies, and with it bringeth out fruits wherewith to feed you; it is He Who hath made the ships subject to you, that they may sail through the sea by His command; and the rivers (also) hath He made subject to you.”
Ibrahim (14)
-Verse 32-

Religion has provided zero answers in relation to reality and the natural world, yet science has provided many.

Neither science has done something wrong to Religion nor has the Religion done something wrong to Science. All the trouble is coming from people who are doing wrong to both the science and the religion under the influence of their hunger for more comfort, pleasure, and joy.

It doesn't say he was hurt or felt pain it just says he died, and no piece of wood is mentioned. So you still haven't proven that ancient people knew being hit in the groin with a piece of wood hurts.

Are you a student of first grade to whom I should explain 2+2=4 by putting two pairs of apples together?

I'm saying ancient people knew scabs caused numbness because 1) They experienced scabs. 2) Numbness is a lack of sensation, it's not a discovery.

The quran gives no knowledge of numbness, of sensation or of anything. It just describes a punishment of repeated skin burning.

Tell me, is synaesthesia a sensation, a discovery, or both.

Why people repeat certain things in some part or throughout their lives?

Well can you explain what the miracle of the verse is again? The only thing I can see the Quran saying right now is that it hurts if you have magic skin and it's continually burned.

You are repeating the same question and forcing me to repeat the same answer.

If some man had written Quran then by nature he was supposed to reflect the influential ideas and concepts of his time in his writings. In seventh century, people thought that pain is affiliated to heart and soul (not even to brain) but by going against those ideas, Quran has put emphasis over skin to show that skin is linked with the burning sensation instead of heart.

For example, today, everyone think that feelings and emotions are the product of brain. However, if I say that brain is not producing feelings and emotions then it is a gigantic contradiction because I am going against the idea of the whole world.

I can go against the world in two cases

a. When I am under pressure or facing some psychological problems or
b. I have a firm proof about some reality, which is hidden from the people in general.

However, if a and b are not valid cases and yet the revealed information is true then that information, without any doubt, is from the source higher than the brainpower of all humans living at the time of revelation.

Thus, the information that skin sense the fire and heart has nothing to do with it makes Quran miraculous.

You do need a huge list of references if you're trying to prove that the entire population of the world knew nothing of something that would have been easily discovered in ancient times.

All it would have taken for someone to discover that fire can cause numbness is for a burns victim to say to someone "I feel nothing here" Or words to that effect.

I don't know how much medical experience the philosophers you mentioned have, I doubt if you have even studied everything that they knew about pain and numbness I have a feeling you're just using Wikipedia quotes and you know just about as much as I do about plato.

Additionally there could have been alternative theories around the time of these philosophers about pain, numbness and so on.

If several historians came to me and said no one in ancient times knew anything about burns or numbness I'd look into the claim of a miracle further, but I'm not just going to take your word for it after seeing a few Wikipedia quotes, and I don't have time to research into every different ancient philosopher and medical person on their knowledge of burns victims, skin, pain or numbness.

If you are not an adamant person and interested in learning about the reality then I recommend you to discuss this topic with your history professors.

Secondly, my arguments and justifications are not based upon Wikipedia. I do take advantage of the information that Wikipedia provides free of cost (thank you, Jimmy Wales and Larry Sanger) to polish my ideas but my main ideas generally stimulated first by the verses of Quran and then by the work of other philosophers and eminent scientists.

As you have noticed that I quote Wikipedia quite extensively, that is because most of you guys have decent confidence in Wikipedia.

But the facts it gives are debatable and only appear to refer to natural phenomena if you interpret them correctly, whereas the germ theory would have been a much stronger evidence for the quran's divinity. And something 7th century Arabs could've used.

Yeah, what kind of a dick God would prove the Quran is a miracle by talking about a nifty-looking light/dark-blue division in the oceans around rivers (the halocline), but wouldn't bother to teach his people how to keep newborn babies from dying of disease.

In your understanding, is there anything more powerful than the mention of Expanding Universe in seventh century?

Quran does not teach how to make your life comfortable by means of physical stuff but give guidance on how to make your life better by being a moral and cooperative person.

“Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!
And no one will be granted such goodness except those who exercise patience and self-restraint,- none but persons of the greatest good fortune.”
Fush Shilat (41)
-Verse 34 – 35-

[paulpablo]

[quote pid='1011577' dateline='1438518715']

You are repeating the same question and forcing me to repeat the same answer.

If some man had written Quran then by nature he was supposed to reflect the influential ideas and concepts of his time in his writings. In seventh century, people thought that pain is affiliated to heart and soul (not even to brain) but by going against those ideas, Quran has put emphasis over skin to show that skin is linked with the burning sensation instead of heart.

For example, today, everyone think that feelings and emotions are the product of brain. However, if I say that brain is not producing feelings and emotions then it is a gigantic contradiction because I am going against the idea of the whole world.

I can go against the world in two cases

a. When I am under pressure or facing some psychological problems or
b. I have a firm proof about some reality, which is hidden from the people in general.

However, if a and b are not valid cases and yet the revealed information is true then that information, without any doubt, is from the source higher than the brainpower of all humans living at the time of revelation.

Thus, the information that skin sense the fire and heart has nothing to do with it makes Quran miraculous.

[/quote]
Do you have any proof apart from Wikipedia articles that no one in ancient times knew that skin could sense fire?  And do you have any proof that the quran says the heart has nothing to do with the sensation of pain?

[paulpablo]

Are you a student of first grade to whom I should explain 2+2=4 by putting two pairs of apples together?

You still haven't proved that people in ancient times knew that being hit in the groin by a piece of wood caused pain.
I'm using your logic and coming to the conclusion that if you can't find an article written by an ancient person about being hit in the groin by a piece of wood causing pain that is perfectly good evidence no one in ancient times knew about pain being caused by being hit in the groin by a piece of wood.

[paulpablo]

You are repeating the same question and forcing me to repeat the same answer.

If some man had written Quran then by nature he was supposed to reflect the influential ideas and concepts of his time in his writings. In seventh century, people thought that pain is affiliated to heart and soul (not even to brain) but by going against those ideas, Quran has put emphasis over skin to show that skin is linked with the burning sensation instead of heart.

For example, today, everyone think that feelings and emotions are the product of brain. However, if I say that brain is not producing feelings and emotions then it is a gigantic contradiction because I am going against the idea of the whole world.

I can go against the world in two cases

a. When I am under pressure or facing some psychological problems or
b. I have a firm proof about some reality, which is hidden from the people in general.

However, if a and b are not valid cases and yet the revealed information is true then that information, without any doubt, is from the source higher than the brainpower of all humans living at the time of revelation.

Thus, the information that skin sense the fire and heart has nothing to do with it makes Quran miraculous.

Just to go into more detail on this, I think you're looking over this too simplistically.
When people say the brain or the heart is responsible for pain they aren't saying the actual burning of the skin isn't causing the pain.
So I'm sure you agree that in ancient times people knew that burning their skin caused pain?
That is one of the most basic scientific discoveries if you can even call it that, all an ancient person would have to do is burn their skin and they would know it is painful.
So then the only thing to discover after that is does the heart or the brain or something else sense these things.
Ancient people might have believed that the brain, the heart or a unbalanced amount of body fluids resulted in pain, but they all knew that it was fire touching the skin that was the initial act which set of pain.
They might have believed that the fire touching skin was sensed by the brain, or by the heart, or that fire touching the skin caused an inbalance in body fluids. 
But it would be ridiculous to say that no one noticed that burning skin causes pain altogether, and this is the only information the quran gives.  The quran doesn't say
"And we will burn their skin and the pain won't be sensed by the heart it will be sensed by the brain."
It just says we will burn their skin, replace the skin burn it again and they will feel pain.  Any ancient man would have known burning skin makes you feel pain, they just wouldn't have known the mechanics behind it, but the quran doesn't give any info to the mechanics behind it.
Additionally I believe you previously said that skin is the cause of pain and not the brain.  But if you want to be simplistic and say any one organ is the cause for pain it would be the brain.  Without skin you can sense pain in other organs, but without a brain you don't sense pain at all.

[bennyboy]

Yeah, what kind of a dick God would prove the Quran is a miracle by talking about a nifty-looking light/dark-blue division in the oceans around rivers (the halocline), but wouldn't bother to teach his people how to keep newborn babies from dying of disease.

In your understanding, is there anything more powerful than the mention of Expanding Universe in seventh century?

Quran does not teach how to make your life comfortable by means of physical stuff but give guidance on how to make your life better by being a moral and cooperative person.

“Nor can goodness and Evil be equal. Repel (Evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!
And no one will be granted such goodness except those who exercise patience and self-restraint,- none but persons of the greatest good fortune.”
Fush Shilat (41)
-Verse 34 – 35-

There was plenty of science in the Greek and Roman traditions, and many ideas about the nature of reality (atoms, etc.) which were "discovered" later.  You are really cherry-picking to find something that makes Islam stand out in a positive way.  But that you have to do so should be a pretty good hint that you're grasping at straws.

The fact is that the Quran offers little that you can't get a better, more modern version of for $10.99 in your local self-help bookstore.  So let me ask you, what wonders has Islam worked in the last couple hundred years?  What great culture, what great literature, what great ideas?  If God really did favor Islam in the 7th century, then no longer. The fact is that the muslim world has stood back since about the 16th century and watched as western thinkers discovered more every year than the Quran writers did in their lifetimes. You want a miracle? Look around your room and discover the power of lightning, harnessed into tiny rivers on silicon chips that can process information billions of times a second. If there is any miracle available to us now, it is clearly science-- and it is almost exclusively western.

[Harris]

Do you have any proof apart from Wikipedia articles that no one in ancient times knew that skin could sense fire?

If people were thinking about the skin, then there should exist at least one reference but neither you nor I nor anyone else in today’s world is able to find even a single statement in the entire human history up until fourteenth century that may be taken as proof that people were aware of the properties of skin.

Why everyone was silent earlier but onwards fourteenth century suddenly started speaking rigorously about the skin properties. Think wisely.

And do you have any proof that the Quran says the heart has nothing to do with the sensation of pain?

Quran gave contrary information by exposing skin as pain receptor in place of heart when everyone was thinking otherwise. It is an adequate proof for any person who is logical.

You still haven't proved that people in ancient times knew that being hit in the groin by a piece of wood caused pain.

Do you think a dying person does not feel pain? Perhaps, death occurs because of agonizing pain.

I'm using your logic and coming to the conclusion that if you can't find an article written by an ancient person about being hit in the groin by a piece of wood causing pain that is perfectly good evidence no one in ancient times knew about pain being caused by being hit in the groin by a piece of wood.

Main idea here is that groin hurts badly when someone strike it forcefully and victim may die due to pain. Here the main idea is not the wood, metal or bone that strike the groin.

Your logic makes strike of a wood the only thing that causes pain in the groin. You are giving sense that if groin were hit by metal, stone, or bone that would not affect it and the victim would not feel any pain after the hit.

By your logic, if you prove that the strike of a wood is the only thing in the world that causes pain in the groin then I will agree with your statement that “NO ONE IN ANCIENT TIMES KNEW THAT BEING HIT BY A PIECE OF WOOD IN THE GROIN HURTS.”

Otherwise, I have already crushed your statement by giving an authentic historical record.

“And when Abner was returned to Hebron, Joab took him aside into the midst of the gate to speak with him quietly, and SMOTE HIM THERE IN THE GROIN, THAT HE DIED, for the blood of Asahel his brother.”
Verse 28
2 Samuel − Chapter 3
Holy Neviim − Book 4

Just to go into more detail on this, I think you're looking over this too simplistically.

When people say the brain or the heart is responsible for pain they aren't saying the actual burning of the skin isn't causing the pain.

True

So I'm sure you agree that in ancient times people knew that burning their skin caused pain?

I do agree

That is one of the most basic scientific discoveries if you can even call it that, all an ancient person would have to do is burn their skin and they would know it is painful.

There is no living animal on earth, which does not try to protect itself from burning in fire. In that sense, burning sensation is not a scientific discovery but such a common knowledge that even animals are also aware of it.

So then the only thing to discover after that is does the heart or the brain or something else sense these things.

Ancient people might have believed that the brain, the heart or a unbalanced amount of body fluids resulted in pain, but they all knew that it was fire touching the skin that was the initial act which set of pain.

They might have believed that the fire touching skin was sensed by the brain, or by the heart, or that fire touching the skin caused an inbalance in body fluids.

But it would be ridiculous to say that no one noticed that burning skin causes pain altogether, and this is the only information the quran gives. The quran doesn't say

"And we will burn their skin and the pain won't be sensed by the heart it will be sensed by the brain."

It just says we will burn their skin, replace the skin burn it again and they will feel pain. Any ancient man would have known burning skin makes you feel pain, they just wouldn't have known the mechanics behind it, but the quran doesn't give any info to the mechanics behind it.

That is the point that even by sensing a burn at the spot where fire touches the skin they were still giving all the credit of burning sensation to the heart and not to the skin. Quran has corrected that idea by attracting the attentions towards the skin.

Additionally I believe you previously said that skin is the cause of pain and not the brain. But if you want to be simplistic and say any one organ is the cause for pain it would be the brain. Without skin you can sense pain in other organs, but without a brain you don't sense pain at all.

Do you know that if you literally burn or cut physical brain of a conscious person then that person does not feel any pain?

Brain is a processor that receives signals from different sensory organs and translate them into some kind of brain language that gives meaning to the consciousness.

Without skin or fire, brain cannot process sense of burning, therefore both the skin and the fire are obligatory for the brain to give burning sensation.

Brain alone is a senseless organ that acts like a dumb, deaf, and blind processor in the absence of input devices. Brain cannot produce any sensation on its own without proper sensory organs therefore the idea that brain or heart independently work out burning sensation is false.

Quran is precise in pointing to skin and internal organs without which people would have no feelings of burn.

There was plenty of science in the Greek and Roman traditions, and many ideas about the nature of reality (atoms, etc.) which were "discovered" later. You are really cherry-picking to find something that makes Islam stand out in a positive way. But that you have to do so should be a pretty good hint that you're grasping at straws.

I do not understand why you hyperactive scientific guys love to throw statements in thin air without any citation.

It is as if I am saying, you have a tail and go aside laughing at you seeing that you are striving hard to prove “no I do not have a tail.”

If you think some ancient Greek thinker said something miraculous then give proper citation along with your statements.

The fact is that the Quran offers little that you can't get a better, more modern version of for $10.99 in your local self-help bookstore. So let me ask you, what wonders has Islam worked in the last couple hundred years? What great culture, what great literature, what great ideas? If God really did favor Islam in the 7th century, then no longer. The fact is that the muslim world has stood back since about the 16th century and watched as western thinkers discovered more every year than the Quran writers did in their lifetimes. You want a miracle? Look around your room and discover the power of lightning, harnessed into tiny rivers on silicon chips that can process information billions of times a second. If there is any miracle available to us now, it is clearly science-- and it is almost exclusively western.

Do you think without nature science is possible?

a. If your answer is Yes then show how
b. If your answer is No then show how nature originated
c. If you do not have answers to a and b then simply agree with the facts that Quran is exposing which are logical in terms of science and philosophy.

What Muslims are doing today or what they did in the past is nothing but a BIG BLAH!