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Have I misunderstood socialism?
#1
Have I misunderstood socialism?
Encouraged by padraic's latest thread about possible misunderstandings about Libertarianism, I have created one about possible misunderstandings of socialism. Often I feel as if I am continually having to explain Libertarian positions, yet none of the socialists explain theirs in the same way.

So, without further ado:

1) How does one judge the value of a commercially made product under socialism?
2) How does one judge the value of a specific job under socialism (i.e. how are wages distributed?)
3) How would welfare deal with people who refuse to work?
4) What reasons would you use to argue for the fairness of progressive tax systems against flat rate tax? In other words, why is it fairer for the people who earn more to have to pay a larger proportion of their earnings?
5) By what reasoning do you set the progressive tax brackets? (i.e. how do you work out the income limit of each tax bracket?)
6) How would you deal with inflation? By what standard is currency set?
7) Why isn't the minimum wage set to $20, or $100? What standard sets the minimum wage?
8) Do you support affirmative action? If so, can't you see the unfairness in a system that favours select groups of people, and the irony that this is what affirmative action wants to remove?

That's all for now Big Grin
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#2
RE: Have I misunderstood socialism?
First to post in an Tiberius thread! Yay!

(April 15, 2010 at 8:39 am)Tiberius Wrote: Encouraged by padraic's latest thread about possible misunderstandings about Libertarianism, I have created one about possible misunderstandings of socialism. Often I feel as if I am continually having to explain Libertarian positions, yet none of the socialists explain theirs in the same way.

So, without further ado:

These are only my opinions and may not "tow the party line".

If I were king of the socialist state:

Quote:1) How does one judge the value of a commercially made product under socialism?

Same as it is now. By demand.

Quote:2) How does one judge the value of a specific job under socialism (i.e. how are wages distributed?)

Same as it is now. Tiers. Menial / skilled / educated

Quote:3) How would welfare deal with people who refuse to work?

Same as it is now. Folks have a set limit to draw benifits. Once the limit is reached you're shit-outta-luck.

Quote:4) What reasons would you use to argue for the fairness of progressive tax systems against flat rate tax? In other words, why is it fairer for the people who earn more to have to pay a larger proportion of their earnings?

I wouldn't. I support a flat tax.

Quote:5) By what reasoning do you set the progressive tax brackets? (i.e. how do you work out the income limit of each tax bracket?)

See above.

Quote:6) How would you deal with inflation? By what standard is currency set?

Dunno. Hire some economic mathematicians to figure that all out? I'd hire Tiberius to head up that department but he'd probably be constantly whining I'm oppressing him so scratch that name off the list.

Quote:7) Why isn't the minimum wage set to $20, or $100? What standard sets the minimum wage?

Cost of living index. I'd still need to hire Adrian to do the maths. Damnit, I guess I'll just put up with the whining of oppression as long as he does his job. Damnit.

Quote:8) Do you support affirmative action?

No.


Quote:.....(can) you see the unfairness in a system that favours select groups of people, and the irony that this is what affirmative action wants to remove?

Yes.

Quote:That's all for now Big Grin

Ok, Thanks. Stop by anytime.
I used to tell a lot of religious jokes. Not any more, I'm a registered sects offender.
---------------
...the least christian thing a person can do is to become a christian. ~Chuck
---------------
NO MA'AM
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#3
RE: Have I misunderstood socialism?
I'm not a socialist. I am and independent. I espouse ideas from both sides, but I do lean left, especially socially. As far as I know, the only "socialist" on the forums is Bozo.
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." Benjamin Franklin

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#4
RE: Have I misunderstood socialism?
(April 15, 2010 at 4:38 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote: I'm not a socialist. I am and independent. I espouse ideas from both sides, but I do lean left, especially socially. As far as I know, the only "socialist" on the forums is Bozo.

Well, I tend to consider myself a socialist insofar as I believe that everyone should have an equal opportunity to benefit from a country's wealth, and that people should be free to make as much as they want as long as the wealthy treat those below them fairly. I agree with Dotards's post, but I admit that I'm not really that knowledgeable about economics.

And by the way, about the affirmative action question: I am personally against it, because I believe that, if at all possible (I'm not entirely sure if it is), racism should be eliminated by eliminating the idea of race, and I think that the fact that the Human Genome Project showed no genes for race might do far more for decreasing racism than electing a half-black man for president. Here's an interesting thing, when I was doing a paper on Neo-Nazi movements for a sociology class, I made myself read the Turner Diaries (personal verdict: Tie with "Left Behind" for worst book ever due to its combination of competent prose and its theme of "Can I haz genocide now" [as opposed to LB's horrible writing and comparatively mild aesops]), and one logic bomb of a passage I found in it included a scene where it is mentioned that Jews are inherently better at business than White people (I'm not even going into the nebulousness of their definitions of "white"), but simply because they're Jewish, they will have to have their jobs done by less competent whites. Yes, they're pretty much putting the same system of race-based inequality in Job Hiring that their forerunners did.
Comparing the Universal Oneness of All Life to Yo Mama since 2010.

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I was born with the gift of laughter and a sense the world is mad.
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#5
RE: Have I misunderstood socialism?
@Dotard; some interesting views on socialism.


A few different perceptions:

Socialism does not infer a fiat economy. Barter can and has worked in quite sophisticated societies,such as ancient Egypt.
The intrinsic value if objects is not inferred; value can also be use-based.

A basic principle of Sociailism is "from each according to his ability,to each according to his needs'. Theoretically, there is no differentiation of the value of work. Remuneration based on need.


There in no profit-based market economy,as there are no capitalists. There is no market economy as we understand the term as consumerism does not exist in socialism. 'Standard of living' is not conflated with 'quality of life'.


NO,I am most certainly not a socialist. I do not support any Utopian ideology,such as Socialism or it's antithesis,Libertarianism. I think they are naive,being based on unrealistic views of 'human nature'. Libertarianism is arguably less romantic although still strangely idealistic.
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#6
RE: Have I misunderstood socialism?
Pure socialism probably wont work in practice.
BUT if you use the socialist idea for areas where it would work you end up with a fairer more balanced society.
Things like socialised health care work well, (at least better than private health care, look at the mess thats america).
There are some industries that work better for the common good when socailised, buses, trains, gas, electricity and the postal service are all infrastructure and should be run for the public good not just for profit.

to paraphrase winston churchill 'socailism isnt the best way to run a country just better than all those others that have been tried'



You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.

Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.




 








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#7
RE: Have I misunderstood socialism?
Can you source that quote? I can't find it on WikiQuote, but I can find these:

"The inherent virtue of Socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy."

Perhaps you mistook this quote of his?

"Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
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#8
RE: Have I misunderstood socialism?
As a complete layman with no education of and little real knowledge of political science, I find that I am not comfortable with any political ideology in full. It seems almost natural to borrow the most beneficial aspects of each in the pursuit of the best society we can build. I suppose that is what counts as 'moderate'.
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#9
RE: Have I misunderstood socialism?
padriac Wrote:"from each according to his ability,to each according to his needs'.

I thought the first part was meritocracy... Dodgy (Which is a very good thing!)
(April 18, 2010 at 2:30 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Can you source that quote? I can't find it on WikiQuote, but I can find these:

"The inherent virtue of Socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."
Equality is unfair to all. Even if all could equally have the best possible, it would almost certainly be unfair.

I have no idea where you came up with the idiotic idea that socialism is inherently different from capitalism in any way more than replacing a single individual responsible for paying with a society.

Quote:"Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy."

Define your statement. To my knowledge none of them apply.

Quote:"Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

And that it has been said makes it true? It has been said that a God was responsible for all of creation. I don't believe it. Give me reason to believe this statement, as I see none.
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
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#10
RE: Have I misunderstood socialism?
I'm just gonna vote for the Transhumanist party and if there isn't one, I will create one Tiger
"God is dead" - Friedrich Nietzsche

"Faith is what you have in things that DON'T exist. - Homer J. Simpson
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