What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[FatAndFaithless]

...Huh?

Just another lame attempt at levity.  Too much time on my hands.  I'll just go stand in the corner.

Just give me one of your dogs to love and pet and we'll be even.

[Whateverist]

Yeah. So far as I know, there aren't any schools which secret teachers who molest their charges from one school to another to protect their identity and allow them to persist in their perversion. When someone is found out, they're out and most likely jailed. It is the Catholic hierarchy's unwillingness to respond in this way which sets it apart.

[Catholic_Lady]

I don't think any sex outside of husband and wife is moral, whether it is between 2 people of the opposite sex or 2 people of the same sex. And I know it is hard for you to understand why I believe this. I don't blame you! It is one of those things that doesn't mean anything unless you believe in God, since I use God in my explanation of it.

The more important question would be if you feel it, not if you believe it.

I grew up as a catholic, so I remember much of the dogmas. But even as a child I was anything but a strong believer. My parents didn't pressure me. As far as I can tell, they weren't dogmatic believers either. As I often repeat on this board, having religious conversations isn't as common in Europe as it seems to be in the USA. Gallup polled Austria as having 51 percent of irreligious people in 2011. And that's nothing compared to Scandinavia.

You know, what little I believed as a child started to fall apart rapidly when some priest told us kids that god would take what's dearest to us if we sin. That must have been before first communion, so I may have been sevenish at the time. My feelings ranged from instant fear for my parents and other relatives to outright disgust. But it got me thinking. I didn't like that god guy for making such a threat, but as a child I made a distinction between god and Jesus and so I was able to go through the motions for another decade. But I never felt anything other than fundamental boredom when sitting through a mass. Communion was a relieve, since it meant, one more song to go and it's over.

In Austria, religion is part of the curriculum at school, if your parents don't opt you out. So we had religious classes and what I heard there, finally did it for me. I still remember a priest going berserk because one of my classmates brought a Playboy magazine. We were 14 at that time and as it is when you hit puberty, your hormones tell a more convincing story than some morality going against natural needs.

But even without religion, I have been a homophobe up until my mid 20ies. I considered them a laughing stock until I discovered my best friend to be gay. Through him I met more and more gay people and once you know them as real people with real feelings and real lives, there's no way you can stay homophobic unless you don't care about other people at all. That's my road to Damascus experience without any religion involved. And given my own past, I take every opportunity to argue the case of the LGBT community.

Wow, well this thread has turned into a regular kumbaya around the campfire.

A little understanding goes a long way to having a decent conversation. Usually we only get the missionary types kicking down the doors with all bibles blazing, so we're not used to actually have a talk.

I can understand a priest getting upset about teenagers bringing porn to school lol. I went to a public high school, and I'm pretty sure I'd get suspended, if not expelled, if I brought something like that to school!

Wow, I'm sorry to hear about the priest when you were 7. That's not right. :

I worked closely for 4 years with a guy who is attracted to guys, and who also wondered whether he should have been born a she. This person is a dear friend of mine who came to my wedding and whom I still keep in touch with today. I do believe that just because you may not agree with everything someone does, does not mean you don't love them. Likewise, I'm sure you don't agree with me on a lot of things, nor do you probably think my views are moral. But you have still treated me with respect and kindness.

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This is kind of a spinoff of the WHY BE GOOD thread.

The question I have for atheists, isn't "why by good." I think it's simplistic and deeply flawed to think that the only reason to "be good" is to avoid Hell. And of course, I believe that anyone can be a good person regardless of beliefs.

The question I have for atheists is how do we know what IS good?

Religious or not, we all somehow know that certain things are intrinsically, universally immoral. Let's use murder as an obvious example. So if murder is wrong, where did this law come from? If this is a universal truth, where did this truth come from and who/what determined it to be what it is?

this is a good question as it often comes up in such debates as to why man needs or does not need a deity.   Christopher Hitchens i think said it best by explaining that we as humans live in a society and therefore must get along for the most part to survive.  Such "badness" as murder, theft, rape (at least of ones own people) is not conducive to such a society.  In war of course all "goodness" is off or at least in the old tribal days.  As realetivly normal people (as opposed to a sociopath)  we have empathy to understand "would i want to be treated in the way I am treating this person now?"  If the answer is yes then it is good if the answer is no then not good.

Thanks for the response! This is also what most people here have been saying, so it seems to be the general consensus.

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How about "she knows what God wants for .. (pregnant pause) .. IT IS WRITTEN."

What does that matter if she ignores half of what is written and makes up her own ideology anyway?

Tbh it's making shit up as you go either way, but if you claim to follow a religion and ignore its dogmas in favor of your own ideas, are you really following that religion? Incidentally I know dozens of religious people who do that....sorta defeats the purpose of associating yourself with the faith

I don't make up my ideology.

Everything I believe is in line with Catholic teaching.

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I have written this reply to CL at least five times. Everytime I try to isolate one quote from her and answer, I end up with the entire quote without my answer being published. It is probably something I did wrong but it is very annoying

Catholic Lady, I used to feel similar to you on the issue of same sex marriage. For reasons that my puny human intellect could not understand, god did not want same sex couples to express their love in the same manner that my husband and I did. That didn't make sense to me but, as a Christian, I accepted it. It wasn't until I lost faith that I realized the mental gymnastics that I had to use in order to retain both my faith and my sense of fairness to same sex couples. Like you, I didn't want the state to forbid same sex couples from marrying but I thought homosexuality was a sin.

I respect your views.

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I don't think any sex outside of husband and wife is moral, whether it is between 2 people of the opposite sex or 2 people of the same sex. And I know it is hard for you to understand why I believe this. I don't blame you! It is one of those things that doesn't mean anything unless you believe in God, since I use God in my explanation of it.

And I can tell you why it doesn't mean anything unless you believe in god: because there is nothing morally wrong with sex outside a heterosexual marriage. Endorsing the opposite idea is a source of sexual repression and misery.  It's baseless, harmful and immoral.

Aside the notion that some sky daddy intends this or that (which brings us to the question.....how do you know that?), no case can be made for why premarital/homosexual sex is wrong. Only religion insists on keeping us in this unhealthy hatred towards everything 'other'. Marriages are man-made, and so are gods. We've been fucking everyone left and right for thousands of years before god finally decided to bat an eye. The only reason religion takes interest in sex is to control people, and frankly, it makes me sick.

I did not phrase myself very well. What I meant was that I cannot explain why I believe it's wrong without referring to God in one way or another. So if you don't believe in God, then the explanation won't matter to you.

Even from a non religious standpoint though, I can still see why saving sex for a loving marriage would be a safer, healthier option. So many difficult things happen to people as a result of having sex outside of marriage... pregnancy, fatherless children, STD's, being taken advantage of, etc. I think it's best to wait, regardless.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I have written this reply to CL at least five times. Everytime I try to isolate one quote from her and answer, I end up with the entire quote without my answer being published. It is probably something I did wrong but it is very annoying

Happened to me yesterday. Typed for about ten minutes, only to get the quote without my reply. Couldn't be arsed to type again.

At the far right of the editing icons, you'll see a page with folded corner. Click on that. It converts the reply form that likes to swallow up replies to the standard XTML format, so you can break up a quote and isolate the kernel you wish to address:

[Catholic_Lady]

When someone says someing I can't possibly fathom like "same gender/extra marital sex is immoral" then I can only think of two explanations:

1) The person already thinks there's something wrong with it, for whatever reason, or has been taught there is something wrong with it. They then use religion as a way to avoid having to give reasons why it is actually immoral.

2) They don't think it is immoral, but the religion they have chosen tells them that it is, so they convince themselves that it is.

To demonstrate I'm wrong would be a simple matter of giving an actual reason why same sex or extra marital sex necessarily causes any more harm than marital, straight sex. It's all the same thing. Pregnancy is the same (except not even a problem for same sex, bonus!), spread of STDs is the same... things don't become magically right and "moral" because of an abstract agreement like marriage.

That's just my analysis and opinions. I'm not trying to single out Catholic Lady here or expecting her to respond, this is my general thoughts for everyone who holds such views.

A god that would actually forbid or get upset about two consenting adults doing what they want together and not hurting anyone else is not what I'd call "good". Instead I'd call it a sexually obsessed control freak. This is a use of the term "immoral" which deviates entirely from what it actually should mean, which is harmful. This is the problem when you have words meaning two things at once.

I respect your views. Honestly, I would not expect you to understand my reasons, especially because I know I don't do the best job of explaining it.

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Come on, Rob...
Sex is for procreation, only.

Lol, well I don't believe that either!

[rexbeccarox]

I really just don't think that's funny.

[The Grand Nudger]

 

So many difficult things happen to people as a result of having sex outside of marriage... pregnancy, fatherless children, STD's, being taken advantage of, etc. I think it's best to wait, regardless.

-and those things -don't happen to people inside of a marriage?  

You know who's the most likely person to give you an std?  A one night stand, maybe?  Some crackhead who raped you?  Nope and nope.  It's your spouse.  Enjoy that HPV, it's gonna be with you for a long time.

Is your spouse somehow -not- going to impregnate you the way your boyfriend would?  Does some switch click into place and the biology of married human beings differs from the biology of unmarried human beings?  No.

Don't even get me started on fatherless children, you know divorce is a big factor in "fatherless children"...and the leading cause of divorce...is marriage.

Husbands don't take advantage of their wives, and wives their husbands?  Turn on the news...or ask your divorced friends.....

Sure, sure, bad and unfortunate things can happen.....but I'm not sure at what point in time marriage turned into some sort of forcefield against misery....and if it were, then I suppose two guys getting married would benefit from that protection..however it's achieved.  So....why prohibit them from something so plainly good, something so protective, something so useful, something that you avail yourself of?

[Catholic_Lady]

Two questions we've all been wondering about but have been too polite to ask:

#1  Is that really you in your avatar picture?  Or are you really some balding, paunchy Catholic guy with a lot of missionary zeal?

#2  Do you ever do anything with strangers you meet on the internet which you are required to bring up in confession?  (I'm not asking for myself, honest.  But some of the guys have been wanting to know.)

#1. LOL! Yes, that is really me haha. Honestly, I did not come here to preach to any of you or to try to convince you. The only reason I am talking about my beliefs so much is because I am being asked. :
I know I probably seem pathetic, spending so much time online. I am an Air Force pilot wife without kids, and my husband works 13ish hours a day. I live in a very small town in the middle of nowhere, so I haven't really tried looking for a decent job. I spend a lot of time at home taking care of my cats, cooking, and tending to the house. I probably hang out with the girls about once or twice a week. But I honestly enjoy the quiet life.

#2. Another LOL question.
No, I never have. My husband is a great man and even though he is gone a lot, we still have a great marriage because he does everything he can for me given the circumstances. I can be a lot to handle sometimes and he takes it graciously. So, I have never been tempted to cheat, even via the internet.

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I really just don't think that's funny.

??

[The Grand Nudger]

You a base wife?  If so, fuckin gratz...you're the white unicorn of base wives.  I mean that earnestly.......you know how it is...

[Catholic_Lady]

 

So many difficult things happen to people as a result of having sex outside of marriage... pregnancy, fatherless children, STD's, being taken advantage of, etc. I think it's best to wait, regardless.

-and those things -don't happen to people inside of a marriage?  

You know who's the most likely person to give you an std?  A one night stand, maybe?  Some crackhead who raped you?  Nope and nope.  It's your spouse.  Enjoy that HPV, it's gonna be with you for a long time.

Is your spouse somehow -not- going to impregnate you the way your boyfriend would?  Does some switch click into place and the biology of married human beings differs from the biology of unmarried human beings?  No.

Don't even get me started on fatherless children, you know divorce is a big factor in "fatherless children"...and the leading cause of divorce...is marriage.

Husbands don't take advantage of their wives, and wives their husbands?  Turn on the news...or ask your divorced friends.....

Sure, sure, bad and unfortunate things can happen.....but I'm not sure at what point in time marriage turned into some sort of forcefield against misery....and if it were, then I suppose two guys getting married would benefit from that protection..however it's achieved.  So....why prohibit them from something so plainly good, something so protective, something so useful, something that you avail yourself of?

I know they can still happen within marriage.
But I think the chances of those things happening do decrease.

Especially with the STD thing, if 2 people go into a marriage never having had sex before and never having sex with anyone else, it really decreases the chances of STD's (unless someone got raped by an infected person).