What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[Godscreated]

Otherwise I think you will continue to believe an entire institution is flawed based on a minority of individuals' bad actions, and I will continue to believe that it is not. And it is perfectly ok to agree to disagree.

Schools do not make the claim of the moral high ground as does the church.

What does the moral high ground have to do with abusing children, the people who abuse children whether part of the church, a street thug or school teacher are guilty of a immoral and illegal action, period. Not only that, when was the public school system not a place that up holds morality.

GC

[Iroscato]

Schools do not make the claim of the moral high ground as does the church.

What does the moral high ground have to do with abusing children, the people who abuse children whether part of the church, a street thug or school teacher are guilty of a immoral and illegal action, period. Not only that, when was the public school system not a place that up holds morality.

GC

You really are that thick, aren't you?

[Catholic_Lady]

Bitch, please.

I asked a simple question and your answer is to rave, you must have an agenda with me I'm not aware of.

GC

I agree.

Kitan, I have respect for you as you have taken the time to talk with me here, but I really don't think you should be bullying/name calling other members here.

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I can certainly see the benefits of monogamy, yes I'm not up on details or studies or anything, but I can appreciate that one single committed relationship will reduce certain risks. Sadly it doesn't always work out with the first person, much as you'd like it to. And I wouldn't want anyone sticking with the first person for the sake of it if they are unhappy.

For me the big thing is that your opinions wouldn't lead you to act. I said it earlier, but I think it's worth repeating. That's an important distinction. As far as I'm concerned, people can think whatever they like as long as it doesn't lead them to harmful actions. Of course there's the issue of passing on those opinions to others, but you're so quick to own them rather than state them as "truths" that I don't see a problem. What I can't stand is indoctrination of children where religious belief is taught as fact. But of course I note you don't have kids anyway

Absolutely on the bolded!

Me thinking a particular action is immoral does not warrant treating anyone badly for it. I can say that I often do things that are immoral too, and I would not want people to throw stones at me for it.

[Longhorn]

I did not phrase myself very well. What I meant was that I cannot explain why I believe it's wrong without referring to God in one way or another. So if you don't believe in God, then the explanation won't matter to you.

....because aside from 'god sez', you don't have a case to make

Even from a non religious standpoint though, I can still see why saving sex for a loving marriage would be a safer, healthier option. So many difficult things happen to people as a result of having sex outside of marriage... pregnancy, fatherless children, STD's, being taken advantage of, etc. I think it's best to wait, regardless.

And like I already mentioned, which must've been buried in all the other replies, contraception takes care of all of that. But pope and crew say it's a no no. Shooting yourself in the foot on their part, don't you think? Abstinence doesn't work, it's a fact.

And regarding being used....ever heard of matrimonial frauds? Or people in committed relationships that aren't married? Surely you don't think marriage is the only way to a stable relationship and without it all relationships are not sincere?....

And you're still ignoring what I said.

Please pay attention to this, I think it's very important.

The views you hold, the same that the catholic church holds, are being taught to children. They cause sexual repression, shame over one's feelings, severe guilt and do not prevent unwanted pregnancies or STDs. They are harmful and immoral, on all grounds. The teaching of them causes very real harm that is very hard to recover from. This is not right.

I think you're a sweet person and I don't understand how you can endorse this. I figured maybe it's because you're not aware.

Your church, in its teachings, harms children. This is not an exaggeration. The very doctrine of that organisation which claims moral authority causes significant hurt.

Now that I know you're aware, how can you associate yourself with that institution and believe such awful things?

[Whateverist]

I can certainly see the benefits of monogamy, yes I'm not up on details or studies or anything, but I can appreciate that one single committed relationship will reduce certain risks. Sadly it doesn't always work out with the first person, much as you'd like it to. And I wouldn't want anyone sticking with the first person for the sake of it if they are unhappy.

For me the big thing is that your opinions wouldn't lead you to act. I said it earlier, but I think it's worth repeating. That's an important distinction. As far as I'm concerned, people can think whatever they like as long as it doesn't lead them to harmful actions. Of course there's the issue of passing on those opinions to others, but you're so quick to own them rather than state them as "truths" that I don't see a problem. What I can't stand is indoctrination of children where religious belief is taught as fact. But of course I note you don't have kids anyway

Absolutely on the bolded!

Me thinking a particular action is immoral does not warrant treating anyone badly for it. I can say that I often do things that are immoral too, and I would not want people to throw stones at me for it.

I hardly think throwing stones at you would be anyone's reaction to your openness to being bad.  How bad do you like to be?

[Catholic_Lady]

Schools do not make the claim of the moral high ground as does the church.

What does the moral high ground have to do with abusing children, the people who abuse children whether part of the church, a street thug or school teacher are guilty of a immoral and illegal action, period. Not only that, when was the public school system not a place that up holds morality.

GC

I understand why people think it is worse/more scandalous when church clergy does it than when school staff does it. I actually agree with them. Church clergy are representing God, and with great power comes great responsibility. It's particularly terrible when someone who claims to be a man of God does it.

What I don't understand is why people are willing to basically say "priests are bad" but not willing to say "teachers are bad". Especially since it has happened soooo much more often with teachers.

And why people are willing to say "well, since out of a billion Catholics, there is a very small percentage of bad seeds, I think Catholicism in general is just bad" and yet they are not willing to say "well, since out of a billion teachers, there is a very small percentage of bad seeds, I think schools/education in general is just bad."

There are a small percentage of bad people in every group and in every establishment. This does not make the entire group itself bad, nor does it make the establishment as a whole bad. The only time this seems to apply is when we are discussing Catholic priests, and I don't understand why. But it is what it is, and I'm ok with that.

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Absolutely on the bolded!

Me thinking a particular action is immoral does not warrant treating anyone badly for it. I can say that I often do things that are immoral too, and I would not want people to throw stones at me for it.

I hardly think throwing stones at you would be anyone's reaction to your openness to being bad.  How bad do you like to be?

Like all people, I can be very selfish at times.

I can yell at my husband for petty things, I can be impatient with my family about stuff, and can be lazy at times and not get stuff done, etc.

No one is perfect, and that is what Jesus meant when he said "He who has never sinned, cast the first stone." If I was going to be here to throw stones at anyone who disagreed with me or who did things that I thought were wrong, I'd also have to except people throwing stones at me for the many wrong things I do.

[Cyberman]

How do you know anything about what "God" wants, Lady?

Hi Stimbo. I think looking at the words and actions of Jesus (whom I believe is God) provides a great insight for me into "what God wants."

Thank you for taking the time to reply. The way some of the threads have been going lately, I was starting to think I was invisible.

However, it doesn't answer my question; it only pushes it back a step. How do you know these things?

[Whateverist]

Do either of you seriously think pedophilia is more rampant among public school teachers than it is with Catholic priests?

That is one question. Another is, do either of you seriously think there has been the same effort to cover it up when it emerges as there has been among the priesthood?

If the answer to either of these questions is yes for either of you I would appreciate knowing the source for your opinion, assuming there is one.

It is the failure of the Catholic leadership not to seek legal intervention for its priests the way I believe every school system would always do in regards to its teachers which I find the most reprehensible.

[robvalue]

Since everyone is hanging out in this thread today, and marriage has come up, I'd like to proudly say it's my fifth wedding anniversary tomorrow

[Whateverist]

Sounds like you landed a good one, and deservedly so.