What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[Mister Agenda]

If you have to deny -reality- in order to maintain your beliefs about it...I think that your beliefs are in trouble.

If materialism is true, there would be no way for us to even know if we have free-will or not at the present moment. So a lot of our beliefs would be in trouble with "reality" as an Atheist perceives.

Mere assertion, dismissed as such. And not all atheists are materialists, Brainiac. If you've been here this long and haven't figured that out yet, I don't see the point of you sticking around any longer. It's not doing you any good, and your posts are neither amusing nor interesting.

[Mister Agenda]

Yes, it is.

I'm well aware that not all christians are abominations like this one. But the point I'm trying to make is, just being religious isn't a safety belt. The truth of the matter is, you can pick horrible things from the bible and act accordingly. And Kyle, in my opinion, has it absolutely right. These people are brothers in spirit to the Taliban and ISIS. It's only a functioning society preventing them to act on their vileness.

And they feel justified in the same way you feel justified. They only get a different message from the same texts.

I would argue that these types of people are not Christians no matter what they claim. Being a Christian takes more than just claiming the name. You have to live like one to deserve the title. A good test is from Galatians 5:

Life by the Spirit
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Well, it seems I've only encountered about three Christians then.

[Mister Agenda]

You may not agree with my beliefs about sexual morality, and that is perfectly fine. I understand, and I wouldn't expect you to agree.
Regardless, if 2 men or 2 women want to be in a romantic relationship, it is their right to do so and I still respect them as people and I respect their right. But I cannot say I believe it to be morally good.

I think I lost half of my respect for you from that post alone. I still can't fathom how you can come off so sweet and hold such hateful beliefs.

Religion.

[Whateverist]

She read it in a book.

Well, we'll see. I might have somewhere to take this.

How about "she knows what God wants for .. (pregnant pause) .. IT IS WRITTEN."

[loganonekenobi]

This is kind of a spinoff of the WHY BE GOOD thread.

The question I have for atheists, isn't "why by good." I think it's simplistic and deeply flawed to think that the only reason to "be good" is to avoid Hell. And of course, I believe that anyone can be a good person regardless of beliefs.

The question I have for atheists is how do we know what IS good?

Religious or not, we all somehow know that certain things are intrinsically, universally immoral. Let's use murder as an obvious example. So if murder is wrong, where did this law come from? If this is a universal truth, where did this truth come from and who/what determined it to be what it is?

this is a good question as it often comes up in such debates as to why man needs or does not need a deity. Christopher Hitchens i think said it best by explaining that we as humans live in a society and therefore must get along for the most part to survive. Such "badness" as murder, theft, rape (at least of ones own people) is not conducive to such a society. In war of course all "goodness" is off or at least in the old tribal days. As realetivly normal people (as opposed to a sociopath) we have empathy to understand "would i want to be treated in the way I am treating this person now?" If the answer is yes then it is good if the answer is no then not good.

[Nope]

I think I lost half of my respect for you from that post alone. I still can't fathom how you can come off so sweet and hold such hateful beliefs.

Religion.

She probably is very sweet but she has never asked why a 'good' god would condemn two men for wanting to express love to one another but never had said anything  against such things as child marriage or rape. Her views might change if she discovered one of her children were gay and found someone that made them very happy.

This is a fascinating thread but, wow, 40+ pages!

[Longhorn]

Well, we'll see. I might have somewhere to take this.

How about "she knows what God wants for .. (pregnant pause) .. IT IS WRITTEN."

What does that matter if she ignores half of what is written and makes up her own ideology anyway?

Tbh it's making shit up as you go either way, but if you claim to follow a religion and ignore its dogmas in favor of your own ideas, are you really following that religion? Incidentally I know dozens of religious people who do that....sorta defeats the purpose of associating yourself with the faith

[Longhorn]

I think I lost half of my respect for you from that post alone. I still can't fathom how you can come off so sweet and hold such hateful beliefs.

Religion.

....poisons everything.

[Nope]

I would argue that these types of people are not Christians no matter what they claim. Being a Christian takes more than just claiming the name. You have to live like one to deserve the title. A good test is from Galatians 5:

Life by the Spirit
13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Well, it seems I've only encountered about three Christians then.

The Christians that I have met who most fit these verses generally aren't very religious and don't go to church. I have also met nonChristians who are very gentle, kind people that meet most of the criteria for a good person, at least what is outlined in those verses. So, the fruit of the Holy Spirit is given to people who don't believe in Jesus and is denied to many of those who do. It is almost like the HS does not exist.

[abaris]

Well, it seems I've only encountered about three Christians then.

The Christians that I have met who most fit these verses generally aren't very religious and don't go to church. I have also met nonChristians who are very gentle, kind people that meet most of the criteria for a good person, at least what is outlined in those verses. So, the fruit of the Holy Spirit is given to people who don't believe in Jesus and is denied to many of those who do. It is almost like the HS does not exist.

And may I just note that it's always the "no true scottsman" argument when one of them reveals himself to be a raving lunatic.