Fluoride

[Eilonnwy]

Holy shit, I'm sick of the squawking in the shoutbox.

MultiverserTheory, provide double blind, repeatable studies that prove fluoride is the least bit damaging. Come on, if it's so obvious, you should have the evidence to back it up.

Provide repeatable, double blind studies that show the benefits of Flouride. Then we'll compre results.

You first. I don't have the burden of proof. You're making the claim.

[The_Flying_Skeptic]

what are your sources multiverse?

[TheMultiverseTheory]

http://www.holisticmed.com/fluoride/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ys9q1cvKGk

http://www.aroma-essence.com/research-re...oride.html

http://thyroid.about.com/cs/toxicchemica...ouride.htm

http://www.downwithbasics.com/toothpastedanger.html

http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natur...-fluoride/

http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/where...-went.html

http://www.mbschachter.com/dangers_of_fl...uorida.htm

http://www.fluoridealert.org/

http://www.nofluoride.com/

http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/fluoride.htm

http://www.actionpa.org/fluoride/countries.pdf (Countries where it is banned and reasons why)

http://fluoridedangers.blogspot.com/

[The_Flying_Skeptic]

I wanted to check on one of the claims made by the Dr. Osmunson: is the amount of Fluoride in my water equivalent to the amount of Fluoride in a pea of my tooth paste? According to "http://thyroid.about.com/library/articles/blfluoridefinder.htm" there is .40 mg of Fluoride per Liter of water where I live. My toothpaste says that it's 0.2% Fluoride out of 181 grams. 0.2% of 181 grams is 0.3 grams or 300mg. My toothpaste bottle is a regular sized 0.2 Liters. In 1 liter of my toothpaste, there is 1500mg of Fluoride proving that Dr. Osmunson's comparison of a glass of water to a pea of toothpaste is an exaggeration. I looked at the concentrations of Fluoride in other US States and so far none have gone passed a one tenth of a gram of Fluoride per Liter which are far from being comparable to the amount of Fluoride in any amount of toothpaste.

[Pippy]

It is a fierce debate, and both sides have credit.

I don't want to get too involved though. Certainly adding fluoride to the water is ubiquitous, but there are concerns a lot of us have. I always frame my opinions based on my own life, my own information. So instead of quoting websites, may I? I found it weird when they told me there was fluoride in the water. I remember quite clearly that they told me not to drink the fluoride, as it was bad for me. So one of those two parties kind of has to be full of shit. Either you can drink mouthwash, or we shouldn't be drinking minute levels in our tap water...

And then comes the fact that it is topical. This is again, my own interpretation, I have no web link for it. I thought it up all by my self. Topical medicine, by it's definition has to be placed ON the area, and is most certainly not meant to be ingested. If your back hurts, do you eat an icy/hot patch? No, that would do very little for you hurting back, and make you incredibly sick. So if fluoride is topical, why are we ingesting it? And the pro-fluoride people always go on and on about these two points. How there is a) as much fluoride in the water as something small in the ocean, and that b) it has to work for the brief second it passes past out teeth and them into out digestive systems where is absolutely cannot help our dental health anymore. So if it is such a tiny amount that may or may not do anything productive, how come you want to drink it? Those are not arguments for fluoridation, but against.

And then it comes down to the human level. If you, Eilo, or anyone else chooses to drink fluoridated water, feel free. But if I choose not to drink fluoridated water, what are my options. Literally a reverse osmosis system, or to distill and enrich my own water. If I have to do that, I think I should not have to pay for city water. I would have to spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars to have the ability to drink water I am comfortable with. Should I just stop worrying and get on board. Obviously my concerns for drinking what was listed as a toxic waste before becoming a water additive are unfounded.

And if you want to see a creepy side of the fluoride story, look up the Western Oz thing that happened last year or the year before. They were starting fluoridation, and a city worker that had been at the water plant for many, many years quit over it. So then they had a referendum, or a poll, and found that 70% (I am trying to remember, may not be exact) of the locale did not want fluoridated water. So MP's (government people) tried to stop it, and ended up walking out of their posts as well. Stop and think about that. If the water people, the politicians, and the local majority don't want fluoridated water, who is left on the supporting side? When it got rammed through regardless, who made that happen? Creepy.

Thanks,
-Pip

[TheMultiverseTheory]

Look, the facts state as this:

Fluoride is a deadly toxin. It says so on the very labels of toothpaste. You are not to swallow it, yet they also put this in water? Hmm.

To help those people here that prefer to jut out remarks, rather than research, I'll list to you what Fluoride does.

Sodium Fluoride: The lethal does of this is about 1-10grams.
Fluoride is used in incesticide, rodenticides, and the most damaging yet, is the swallowing of toothpaste.
A high enough concentration (over time) can cause Dental Fluorosis, which is quite the opposite of what the Government/Dentists/LardTards tell you it does. In comparison with unfluoridated water, fluoridation to 1 mg/L is estimated to cause fluorosis in one of every 6 people
Futher ingestion over time can cause Skeletal Fluorosis.
Fluoride weakens the bones, decays the teeth, adverse effects to the kidneys, it can even lower Brain Cellular activity -- downing your IQ --
And can also cause thyroid problems.

My argument is this, why are we forced to have a product we are not informed about? People should be able to understand Fluoride in its many volatile variations and the amounts given and the amounts that make it volatile. I for one prefer a more organic toothpaste that is void of a product that, over time, kicks my ass.
I rest my case with the fact, the undeniable, unavoidable, unretardable fact that on labels of ToothPaste, it says not to ingest it and if so to call Poison Control.

If you're not supposed to ingest it, then why is it so hastily placed in the drinking water? There needs to be further studies to SUPPORT why it should be in our water. Otherwise, remove it. There is no sufficient evidence to support that it is a benefit in a short-term or long-term, however there is sufficieant evidence to suggest that Fluoride in its many forms are hazardous to human and animal health through long term ingestion as it is a poison that builds up overtime.

[Paul the Human]

I agree with you, TMT. However, I have been drinking city water spiked with fluoride for years and years and so far... no effect. No kidney problems, no (noticeable) loss of brain activity, no thyroid problems, etc.

Should the fluoride be there in my water without my consent? Nope. Probably not. Has its presence caused any harm to me or anyone I know of? Nope. Not a thing. Perhaps it is not quite so dangerous as it is being made out to be?

[Eilonnwy]

TMT, I'll address your links when I have time. But for now, do you agree that Mercury is a poison?

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http://www.holisticmed.com/fluoride/

Link to a website, no studies cited. Also offers a link to hollistic medicine, that's bunk. This webiste is worthless.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ys9q1cvKGk

---

A youtube video is not a double blinded study. I'm not watching it. But just as a note, from the screen cap I see it says about 1k medical professionals signed a petition. How many medical professionals are there in this country alone? Thousands? Hundreds of Thousands? Maybe even millions? And a paltry 1k have drunk the kool aid. Not evidence.

http://www.aroma-essence.com/research-re...oride.html

Plain ol' website. Not a study.

http://thyroid.about.com/cs/toxicchemica...ouride.htm

Link doesn't work. Did you just copy and paste from some bookmarked links with websites you bought into?

http://www.downwithbasics.com/toothpastedanger.html

Cool story bro. Where's the scientific studies that back it up?

http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/natur...-fluoride/

http://www.globalhealingcenter.com/where...-went.html

http://www.mbschachter.com/dangers_of_fl...uorida.htm

http://www.fluoridealert.org/

http://www.nofluoride.com/

http://www.ecomall.com/greenshopping/fluoride.htm

http://www.actionpa.org/fluoride/countries.pdf (Countries where it is banned and reasons why)

http://fluoridedangers.blogspot.com/

Fuck it. I'm wasting my time. I'm not even looking at these. THESE ARE WEBSITES, with stories. I asked for STUDIES. A link to a double blinded study that has been repeatable. You have not provided that. I can tell from the links that these are just conspiracy websites, one is a fucking blog.

Link to just 1, just 1 fucking SCIENTIFIC study. You can't seem to do that.

[Tiberius]

Fluoride is a deadly toxin. It says so on the very labels of toothpaste. You are not to swallow it, yet they also put this in water? Hmm.

All substances are deadly toxic under the right doses. This is why toxicity is measured by the dose that can harm you. As I said in the shoutbox, the doses in water aren't going to kill you. With toothpaste, the levels are slightly higher, but you can still swallow a brush-sized amount of toothpaste with no ill effects. My toothpaste tube says that minors should be supervised when brushing their teeth, so they do not eat the entire tube. It is the same with mouthwash, although to be honest you'd probably be more affected by the alcohol than you would by the fluoride if you drank it.

Sodium Fluoride: The lethal does of this is about 1-10grams.

Well the debate is over then. Water fluoridation only puts 0.5-1.0 milligrams (i.e. 1/1000th of the lethal dose if the lethal dose is 1g) in every litre of water. So, assuming the worst case scenario from the information you've given me; that the lethal dose is 1g, and the amount they put in the water is 1mg per litre, you'd have to drink 1,000 litres of water over a specific period of time (so it doesn't pass through the body but instead builds up).

The recommended amount of water you should drink a day is 2.7 litres, and 20% of this is expected to come from food sources. So, *does quick calculation* you are supposed to drink 2.16 litres of water per day from non-food sources (i.e. tap water, mineral water, etc). That's a lot of water by the way. Drinking 463 times that in a period of time that could be dangerous to you, and fluoride is the least of your troubles. You are more likely to die of water intoxication than suffer any of the side effects of fluoride.

Fluoride is used in incesticide, rodenticides, and the most damaging yet, is the swallowing of toothpaste.

By incesticide I'll assume you meant insectiside and not the album by Nirvana.

But again, you need to go do a chemistry course. Chemistry is full of wonderful surprises; compounds made up of different elements can be completely harmless, and then when combined with a different element, become dangerous.

For instance, Oxygen is important for us...we need it to live. Carbon is what our bodies are made of. Both of these elements are not dangerous to us, yet when they are combined, they either make Carbon Monoxide, or Carbon Dioxide. Carbon Dioxide is a substance that we can't breath (in fact we exhale more of it) and is dangerous to us for that reason. Carbon Monoxide is a perfect killer though; lethal in small doses, and to top it all off, it is odourlous and colourless.

So, to say the most dangerous of the above is swallowing toothpaste is dishonest. Both insecticide and rodenticide are made from compounds designed to kill things. Toothpaste isn't. I've already given you the amounts of sodium fluoride that are deadly, and these amounts aren't used in toothpaste either. Yes, there is a higher concentration. Yes, if you eat an entire tube of toothpaste you should rush to a doctor. This is why you aren't mean to eat tubes of toothpaste. I haven't come across anyone who has died from eating toothpaste, though you are welcome to look into it if you want. All it proves is that you shouldn't eat toothpaste though.

A high enough concentration (over time) can cause Dental Fluorosis, which is quite the opposite of what the Government/Dentists/LardTards tell you it does. In comparison with unfluoridated water, fluoridation to 1 mg/L is estimated to cause fluorosis in one of every 6 people

It's not the opposite, especially in artificial water fluoridation (i.e. done by the government). Again, it depends on how much you drink. The 1 in 6 get mild dental fluoridation, which means a few streaks of white on the teeth. However, the protection from cavities is still present, and the only effect at these levels is aesthetic.

Natural fluoridation of water is more likely to cause dangerous fluorosis, since the levels are much higher.

Futher ingestion over time can cause Skeletal Fluorosis.
Fluoride weakens the bones, decays the teeth, adverse effects to the kidneys, it can even lower Brain Cellular activity -- downing your IQ --
And can also cause thyroid problems.

Only in high amounts. There isn't any evidence to suggest that the amounts are high enough to cause any of the effects you listed above. Unless you find actual papers (i.e. scientific and peer reviewed) that condemn the use of fluoridation in water because it causes any of the above, I'm not going to believe what are essentially baseless assertions made without a proper understanding of chemistry and toxicology.

My argument is this, why are we forced to have a product we are not informed about?

We are informed about it. You can ask dentists, research online; all dental websites have a section on it (as I found when you first mentioned it).

People should be able to understand Fluoride in its many volatile variations and the amounts given and the amounts that make it volatile. I for one prefer a more organic toothpaste that is void of a product that, over time, kicks my ass.

People do understand it, but people like you don't seem to recognise that just because something is lethal in a specific dose, it can have beneficial effects at lower doses. If you really think that dosage is of no importance, then you'd better stop breathing, drinking, and eating, because guess what? Oxygen is a poison, water is a poison, and most food are poisons.

I rest my case with the fact, the undeniable, unavoidable, unretardable fact that on labels of ToothPaste, it says not to ingest it and if so to call Poison Control.

Deodorant contains the same warnings, but then, you aren't meant to consume deodorant either. Do you realise how stupid you sound right now? If toothpaste was a food, I'd agree with you completely. It isn't though, and the closest it is meant to get to digestion is in your mouth. You brush and you spit; it's very very simple.

If you're not supposed to ingest it, then why is it so hastily placed in the drinking water? There needs to be further studies to SUPPORT why it should be in our water. Otherwise, remove it. There is no sufficient evidence to support that it is a benefit in a short-term or long-term, however there is sufficieant evidence to suggest that Fluoride in its many forms are hazardous to human and animal health through long term ingestion as it is a poison that builds up overtime.

You aren't supposed to ingest it in toothpaste because the concentrations are higher. Simple as that. It's in much lower quantities in our drinking water because you are meant to drink drinking water (it's the name!). Nobody wants to kill anyone with water fluoridation, so they put minute quantities in to eliminate the possibility of a poisonous dosage. As I showed you before, you'd have to drink 1,000 litres of water to get to the deadly dose, and you'd have to do it quickly.

No, it doesn't build up over time. You evidently need to take a biology course as well. Like most substances ingested, it goes through your body and eventually leaves through any number of ways. It builds up in the short term, but only in the short term. This is why I've already pointed out to you the stupid amount of water you'd have to drink in order to feel the effects. If your argument were true, people would be dropping dead after drinking such water for 1.5 years. I don't know about you, but I've been drinking water for 22 years, and I'm fine.

[The_Flying_Skeptic]

hey guys, i discredited Dr. Osmunson's comparison of a glass of water to tooth paste, first. i demand kudos. lmao